5 ms·

Is student debt the culprit? Or is it just the greater trend of urbanization that has been happening for literally centuries? I'm not using the word literally a

Is student debt the culprit? Or is it just the greater trend of urbanization that has been happening for literally centuries? I'm not using the word literally as a means of emphasis here, the globe has on average been becoming more urban since the agricultural revolution. Overall, population centers are more economically productive. You have more people collected in a smaller space, so workers and industries can cooperate more effectively. Countries' levels of urbanization have and, to varying degrees, continue to have a strong correlation with their level of wealth. You have more goods and services available within a smaller area. Workers have more job opportunities. Urbanization also has good environmental effects. It makes cleaner modes of transport, like trains and subways, much more feasible. Power and water has to travel a smaller distance (except for when people put cities in dumb locations with regards to water distribution, like LA). Dense countries tend to have a smaller carbon footprint compared to more rural countries with the same standards of living. Basically, there's a lot to be gained by populations shifting from rural areas to the city. I'm not so sure why many are so eager to lament a shrinking rural population.

dtech 8y ago
> Is student debt the culprit? It's not. The same trend can be seen all over Europe, where student debt is a much smaller issue.
- TulliusCicero 8y ago
  As an American in Germany, small towns here seem a lot healthier to me. Maybe it's just tourist-vision, or that most of the ones I've been to are in Bavaria (which is doing very well economically), but they look and feel quite vibrant. Personally, I think part of this is that they're urbanist in a way that US small towns almost never are: even cities of 5 or 10 or 20k here are highly walkable, moreso than US cities 10x the population size, with cute downtowns to boot.
  - cheschire 8y ago
    A lot of the vibrant small villages and towns in rural Germany are struggling. Healthcare is a huge problem, for example, and there are attempts at solving the problem with mobile clinics but that's only fixing a symptom. Commuting is another issue as a lot of unskilled labor is put out of business by the larger businesses who can undercut them on prices. For example a local corner store may go out of business because they cannot purchase in bulk due to the small population, so an Aldi moves in 2 towns away, puts all the corner stores within a 10km radius out of business, and now all those employees have to compete for limited positions AND commute on top of that.
  - pjc50 8y ago
    Germany is probably exceptional, because as you say it's doing pretty well. Italy is full of abandoned villages: https://www.irishtimes.com/life-and-style/homes-and-property/buyer-beware-the-catch-to-italian-ghost-village-bargains-1.3141722 https://www.irishtimes.com/life-and-style/homes-and-property...
    - CalRobert 8y ago
      I must admit I eye Immowelt with envy sometimes. There are stunningly beautiful fachwerk homes under 100k if you want a project. There was on in Rothenberg Ob Der Tauber a while back I half-considered for a project.
  - Balero 8y ago
    Historically Germany has been a very decentralised place, have a look at a map of the Holy Roman Empire. It was also in recent position of being split in two, with the capital of West Germany not being connected to the rest of the country. This almost certainly why it's industry is spread out to smaller towns and cities.
    - tcptomato 8y ago
      The capital of West Germany was Bonn ...
      - Balero 8y ago
        I did not know that! Thank you. But I don't think it draws from the larger point.
ahje 8y ago
> I'm not so sure why many are so eager to lament a shrinking rural population. I'm not from the States, but I guess this is fairly universal: Country-side living has it's benefits: The pace is usually lower, there's less pollution and things are delightfully silent. Personally I have no intention of ever moving into a densely populated area again. Apart from that, there's a lot of local culture and customs that is slowly being lost as young people move away from rural areas and into population centres dominated by international pop-culture. There's also the problem with people in urban areas losing their touch with the outside world, living in a small bubble with no idea about how things work outside. This will, in the long run, result in a lot of knowledge being lost.
- freddie_mercury 8y ago
  I'm not sure it is universal, though it is certainly widespread in the US and Europe. I was at dinner the other day with a friend who was born & raised in Asia and she argued that the romanticized view of village life is far less prevalent in Asia, where it is less a sign of morals and family values and more a sign of abject poverty and lack of education. I'm not sure I buy her argument but I thought it was interesting that her reaction to having lived in America for a year and seeing these issues up close was, "We're used to it in Asia but they're not used to it in America so they get very upset that that's how the world works now."
- JansjoFromIkea 8y ago
  one person's "delightfully silent" is another's "uncomfortably silent". As someone who grew up in a rural area (Irish rural, so nowhere near the kind of rural you can get in other countries), there seemed to be a shared feeling amongst just about everyone that everyone else knew far too much about their affairs. And if you're considered an outsider in the community it can be close to impossible for you or your family to ever break in. It's easy to romanticise a rural area too and mourn knowledge being lost, but that simultaneously involves condemning kids to continue the same cycles as their parents maintaining traditions and practices with little motive behind it beyond it being the thing that was always done. The small bubbles of rural areas are often far smaller and far more ignorant than densely populated areas too. I had no source of knowledge whatsoever as to how the rest of the world functioned until I moved away. There was basically no chance in hell I was going to be able to know what I might like to do with my life at 18. One thing I never got with families who moved out of a city to live in a (much much bigger) house in the country was why they didn't factor the sheer amount of extra work that will be involved in expanding their child's worldview when out of school activities become slim-to-nonexistent.
kortilla 8y ago
Why is water distribution a problem in LA? Even in an insane place like Phoenix, the energy for water distribution is negligible with the canals in place.

dtech 8y ago

> Is student debt the culprit? It's not. The same trend can be seen all over Europe, where student debt is a much smaller issue.

TulliusCicero 8y ago
As an American in Germany, small towns here seem a lot healthier to me. Maybe it's just tourist-vision, or that most of the ones I've been to are in Bavaria (which is doing very well economically), but they look and feel quite vibrant. Personally, I think part of this is that they're urbanist in a way that US small towns almost never are: even cities of 5 or 10 or 20k here are highly walkable, moreso than US cities 10x the population size, with cute downtowns to boot.
- cheschire 8y ago
  A lot of the vibrant small villages and towns in rural Germany are struggling. Healthcare is a huge problem, for example, and there are attempts at solving the problem with mobile clinics but that's only fixing a symptom. Commuting is another issue as a lot of unskilled labor is put out of business by the larger businesses who can undercut them on prices. For example a local corner store may go out of business because they cannot purchase in bulk due to the small population, so an Aldi moves in 2 towns away, puts all the corner stores within a 10km radius out of business, and now all those employees have to compete for limited positions AND commute on top of that.
- pjc50 8y ago
  Germany is probably exceptional, because as you say it's doing pretty well. Italy is full of abandoned villages: https://www.irishtimes.com/life-and-style/homes-and-property/buyer-beware-the-catch-to-italian-ghost-village-bargains-1.3141722 https://www.irishtimes.com/life-and-style/homes-and-property...
  - CalRobert 8y ago
    I must admit I eye Immowelt with envy sometimes. There are stunningly beautiful fachwerk homes under 100k if you want a project. There was on in Rothenberg Ob Der Tauber a while back I half-considered for a project.
- Balero 8y ago
  Historically Germany has been a very decentralised place, have a look at a map of the Holy Roman Empire. It was also in recent position of being split in two, with the capital of West Germany not being connected to the rest of the country. This almost certainly why it's industry is spread out to smaller towns and cities.
  - tcptomato 8y ago
    The capital of West Germany was Bonn ...
    - Balero 8y ago
      I did not know that! Thank you. But I don't think it draws from the larger point.

ahje 8y ago

> I'm not so sure why many are so eager to lament a shrinking rural population. I'm not from the States, but I guess this is fairly universal: Country-side living has it's benefits: The pace is usually lower, there's less pollution and things are delightfully silent. Personally I have no intention of ever moving into a densely populated area again. Apart from that, there's a lot of local culture and customs that is slowly being lost as young people move away from rural areas and into population centres dominated by international pop-culture. There's also the problem with people in urban areas losing their touch with the outside world, living in a small bubble with no idea about how things work outside. This will, in the long run, result in a lot of knowledge being lost.

freddie_mercury 8y ago
I'm not sure it is universal, though it is certainly widespread in the US and Europe. I was at dinner the other day with a friend who was born & raised in Asia and she argued that the romanticized view of village life is far less prevalent in Asia, where it is less a sign of morals and family values and more a sign of abject poverty and lack of education. I'm not sure I buy her argument but I thought it was interesting that her reaction to having lived in America for a year and seeing these issues up close was, "We're used to it in Asia but they're not used to it in America so they get very upset that that's how the world works now."
JansjoFromIkea 8y ago
one person's "delightfully silent" is another's "uncomfortably silent". As someone who grew up in a rural area (Irish rural, so nowhere near the kind of rural you can get in other countries), there seemed to be a shared feeling amongst just about everyone that everyone else knew far too much about their affairs. And if you're considered an outsider in the community it can be close to impossible for you or your family to ever break in. It's easy to romanticise a rural area too and mourn knowledge being lost, but that simultaneously involves condemning kids to continue the same cycles as their parents maintaining traditions and practices with little motive behind it beyond it being the thing that was always done. The small bubbles of rural areas are often far smaller and far more ignorant than densely populated areas too. I had no source of knowledge whatsoever as to how the rest of the world functioned until I moved away. There was basically no chance in hell I was going to be able to know what I might like to do with my life at 18. One thing I never got with families who moved out of a city to live in a (much much bigger) house in the country was why they didn't factor the sheer amount of extra work that will be involved in expanding their child's worldview when out of school activities become slim-to-nonexistent.

kortilla 8y ago

Why is water distribution a problem in LA? Even in an insane place like Phoenix, the energy for water distribution is negligible with the canals in place.