4 ms·

"it should be clear to anyone with any semblance of a moral imagination that having a group of people receive worse treatment and outcome on the basis of their

"it should be clear to anyone with any semblance of a moral imagination that having a group of people receive worse treatment and outcome on the basis of their race is immoral and should not be happening." It's fine to strive for preventing it. Google surely learned from the Gorilla mistake and improved their algorithm. But it is too much to blame them of racism for that error, and demand all such errors are prevented. That is simply impossible. You now think of the simple example of "white vs black", but there are many, many more facets to it. There may be races that are not even discovered yet. You may now have accounted black people in your algorithm. Have you included Tibetan monks, Inuit, native Americans? People with facial deformities? Bad lighting? It is simply impossible to take into account all possibilities, because you can not predict them all. You can only try to improve your algorithm as much as possible. You can't demand perfect algorithms. People have "gamed" image recognition algorithms, adding some noise to make them yield completely silly results. The algorithms are simply not perfect yet. "Not having many different racial groups living together does not mean that a nation has not significantly benefitted from or perpetuated massively destructive, often times genocidal projects on racialized grounds" Ugh, spare me. If you want to go down that route, consider that many people in Africa also benefited from slavery (black tribes selling their enemies as slaves). And my country (Germany) was not even involved in the slave trade, or much of colonization. Yes, if you look down far enough in history, you will find violence and all sorts of ugly things. The PoC you are trying to protect might only be alive because his ancestors killed off their neighboring tribe, women, children and all. I don't think it even makes sense to somehow try to disentangle that. Just treat the people living today in a fair way.

billy_beef 8y ago
You should perhaps begin by educating yourself to the actual role that Germany did play in the colonization of the African continent in the late 19th and early 20th century: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/German_colonial_empire https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/German_colonial_empire . I would not call this particularly far in history since it only ended in the 1910s.
- deleted 8y ago
  [deleted]
- adlkjnndnnd 8y ago
  They were late to the party and I don't think their "efforts" were comparable to that of some other prominent nations. But it doesn't really matter, as I said. Nobody who was around back then is still alive today.
  - billy_beef 8y ago
    My point here was to demonstrate the way in which your nation's present day wealth was bolstered by its historical oppression. The labor value that European nations were able to extract from their colonies was extremely high. The nation you currently live in benefitted materially from this. You benefitted from this. That probably doesn't feel good to hear but it is not a fact you can choose to accept or not. It's also important to remember that when comparing the magnitude of atrocities, both things were still atrocities.
    - adlkjnndnnd 8y ago
      I think history is far more messy than you make it out to be. There are not always easy black and white answers. I don't think the brief colonial episode simply explains the wealth of my country (or many others) - especially as in between it had been completely destroyed. But that's also, again, besides the point. History was complex. All sorts of people made war with each other, murdered and enslaved. Including people in the African continent. That's what humans were and are. Maybe those warmongering people simply earned their exploits, "fair and square" so to speak - we may not like it, but who is going to take it away from them, and on what grounds? But the theory that wealth is only a result of exploitation is completely wrong. Our wealth in the modern world is mostly the result of technological progress, not of exploitation.
      - billy_beef 8y ago
        > I don't think the brief colonial episode simply explains the wealth of my country (or many others) - especially as in between it had been completely destroyed. The fact that your nation lost stolen wealth does not absolve it of the crime of theft friend. > But the theory that wealth is only a result of exploitation is completely wrong. Our wealth in the modern world is mostly the result of technological progress, not of exploitation. I did not say that, you are straw manning my argument. I am saying that THAT wealth creation, incontrovertibly, was exploitative.
billy_beef 8y ago
> If you want to go down that route, consider that many people in Africa also benefited from slavery (black tribes selling their enemies as slaves). Yeah, that's gonna be a yikes from me dawg.
- adlkjnndnnd 8y ago
  Why? What? What is your point?
- dang 8y ago
  We've banned this account. This is not a site for political or ideological battle. Please see https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html. If you don't want to be banned, you're welcome to email hn@ycombinator.com and give us reason to believe that you'll follow the rules in the future.
billy_beef 8y ago
> And my country (Germany) was not even involved in the slave trade, or much of colonization. Yes, if you look down far enough in history, you will find violence and all sorts of ugly things. Your nation quite literally carried out a genocidal project against non-white people so at this point I'm not even sure what you're arguing.
- adlkjnndnnd 8y ago
  It's all besides the point. As I said, you will find violence, slavery and murder in every person's ancestors history, if you go back far enough. But also, I don't feel guilty for the deeds of my nation, as they happened before my birth. I feel we have a duty to learn from history to prevent bad things from happening. That's it. If you really want to go down that route - you are aware that the USA was taken away from native Americans, who died by the millions?
  - billy_beef 8y ago
    If you don't think your nation had a moral duty to apologize for the genocide of millions of Jews, black ppl, disabled ppl and queer people, then I don't think we are going to find common ground. The contingent nature of history seems to largely escape you. > If you really want to go down that route - you are aware that the USA was taken away from native Americans, who died by the millions? Of course and I believe those people are owed reparations both for their historically poor treatment and for the continuing violence they face (see standing rock)
    - adlkjnndnnd 8y ago
      No I don't think we are going to find common ground. As I said, I wasn't around in WWII. The victors of WWII decided on appropriate punishments for the losers, although obviously nothing can bring the dead back to live. So the nation "Germany" is paying what the winners of the war decided. Apart from that, who is "the nation" who is supposed to apologize, and in what way? Are Germans who hid Jews in their attics also to apologize? What about the queer Germans who were imprisoned in the concentration camps, and then returned to a free life in post war Germany? You don't really know anything about the individual Germans, so who are you to dish out universal blame? What about Nazis who emigrated to the US - does that mean the US should also apologize for the genocide of millions of Jews? Yes sometimes crimes of nations can also be disentangled, and things stolen can be returned. But it is also not a card blanche for arbitrary demands, forever. There was in fact also a history before WWII, it was not just a bunch of people turning evil out of the blue. When do you stop - with Adam and Eve? I feel a responsibility to all people, and Germans maybe are raised more sensitive to some issues than others. But that's about it. Maybe if I was sitting on a huge pile of nazi gold, I'd think different. But I am not. So maybe address your blame to the people who actually got rich. "I believe those people are owed reparations" But how much? Are you planning to leave the US, to give them back their land? Somehow I don't think so? How much would be enough, to acquit you of your guilt?

billy_beef 8y ago

You should perhaps begin by educating yourself to the actual role that Germany did play in the colonization of the African continent in the late 19th and early 20th century: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/German_colonial_empire https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/German_colonial_empire . I would not call this particularly far in history since it only ended in the 1910s.

deleted 8y ago
[deleted]
adlkjnndnnd 8y ago
They were late to the party and I don't think their "efforts" were comparable to that of some other prominent nations. But it doesn't really matter, as I said. Nobody who was around back then is still alive today.
- billy_beef 8y ago
  My point here was to demonstrate the way in which your nation's present day wealth was bolstered by its historical oppression. The labor value that European nations were able to extract from their colonies was extremely high. The nation you currently live in benefitted materially from this. You benefitted from this. That probably doesn't feel good to hear but it is not a fact you can choose to accept or not. It's also important to remember that when comparing the magnitude of atrocities, both things were still atrocities.
  - adlkjnndnnd 8y ago
    I think history is far more messy than you make it out to be. There are not always easy black and white answers. I don't think the brief colonial episode simply explains the wealth of my country (or many others) - especially as in between it had been completely destroyed. But that's also, again, besides the point. History was complex. All sorts of people made war with each other, murdered and enslaved. Including people in the African continent. That's what humans were and are. Maybe those warmongering people simply earned their exploits, "fair and square" so to speak - we may not like it, but who is going to take it away from them, and on what grounds? But the theory that wealth is only a result of exploitation is completely wrong. Our wealth in the modern world is mostly the result of technological progress, not of exploitation.
    - billy_beef 8y ago
      > I don't think the brief colonial episode simply explains the wealth of my country (or many others) - especially as in between it had been completely destroyed. The fact that your nation lost stolen wealth does not absolve it of the crime of theft friend. > But the theory that wealth is only a result of exploitation is completely wrong. Our wealth in the modern world is mostly the result of technological progress, not of exploitation. I did not say that, you are straw manning my argument. I am saying that THAT wealth creation, incontrovertibly, was exploitative.

billy_beef 8y ago

> If you want to go down that route, consider that many people in Africa also benefited from slavery (black tribes selling their enemies as slaves). Yeah, that's gonna be a yikes from me dawg.

adlkjnndnnd 8y ago
Why? What? What is your point?
dang 8y ago
We've banned this account. This is not a site for political or ideological battle. Please see https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html. If you don't want to be banned, you're welcome to email hn@ycombinator.com and give us reason to believe that you'll follow the rules in the future.

billy_beef 8y ago

> And my country (Germany) was not even involved in the slave trade, or much of colonization. Yes, if you look down far enough in history, you will find violence and all sorts of ugly things. Your nation quite literally carried out a genocidal project against non-white people so at this point I'm not even sure what you're arguing.

adlkjnndnnd 8y ago
It's all besides the point. As I said, you will find violence, slavery and murder in every person's ancestors history, if you go back far enough. But also, I don't feel guilty for the deeds of my nation, as they happened before my birth. I feel we have a duty to learn from history to prevent bad things from happening. That's it. If you really want to go down that route - you are aware that the USA was taken away from native Americans, who died by the millions?
- billy_beef 8y ago
  If you don't think your nation had a moral duty to apologize for the genocide of millions of Jews, black ppl, disabled ppl and queer people, then I don't think we are going to find common ground. The contingent nature of history seems to largely escape you. > If you really want to go down that route - you are aware that the USA was taken away from native Americans, who died by the millions? Of course and I believe those people are owed reparations both for their historically poor treatment and for the continuing violence they face (see standing rock)
  - adlkjnndnnd 8y ago
    No I don't think we are going to find common ground. As I said, I wasn't around in WWII. The victors of WWII decided on appropriate punishments for the losers, although obviously nothing can bring the dead back to live. So the nation "Germany" is paying what the winners of the war decided. Apart from that, who is "the nation" who is supposed to apologize, and in what way? Are Germans who hid Jews in their attics also to apologize? What about the queer Germans who were imprisoned in the concentration camps, and then returned to a free life in post war Germany? You don't really know anything about the individual Germans, so who are you to dish out universal blame? What about Nazis who emigrated to the US - does that mean the US should also apologize for the genocide of millions of Jews? Yes sometimes crimes of nations can also be disentangled, and things stolen can be returned. But it is also not a card blanche for arbitrary demands, forever. There was in fact also a history before WWII, it was not just a bunch of people turning evil out of the blue. When do you stop - with Adam and Eve? I feel a responsibility to all people, and Germans maybe are raised more sensitive to some issues than others. But that's about it. Maybe if I was sitting on a huge pile of nazi gold, I'd think different. But I am not. So maybe address your blame to the people who actually got rich. "I believe those people are owed reparations" But how much? Are you planning to leave the US, to give them back their land? Somehow I don't think so? How much would be enough, to acquit you of your guilt?