8 ms·

Talk about a back-handed compliment! WinForms is the original and best... and I think the only widget kit from it's generation still around and maintained

by tomc1985 8y ago

pjmlp 8y ago
Actually Delphi VCL is older than WinForms and is still around as well, and much better because Delphi always compiled to native code, which was a disappointment for me that .NET didnßt follow the same model and only had NGEN a kind of approximation, given Anders being the main architect on .NET.
- shawnb576 8y ago
  Anders was primarily focused on C#. He contributed greatly to some of the pre-FX frameworks (WFC), but once the VJ++ injunction happened, MS was very focused on getting a modern language out into the world. The part that you are referencing was part of the CLR (nee COM+) organization. This native compilation didn't happen for a couple of reasons: 1. Serviceability - the idea was that we wanted to be able to roll out new assemblies with fixes (remember this was in the "oh shit" phase of security awareness at MS) 2. Optimizations - there was an idea that you wanted different JIT to happen based on end machine architecture, server vs client, etc. 3. Size - at this point the size of the resulting binaries (for distribution) was still a concern. At that point it seemed better to have fat frameworks updated by Windows Update, and smaller apps that depended on that. Many of these reasons seems less compelling now. MS was often a bubble in those days. I left in 2012 but it seems better now and it shows in their products.
  - pjmlp 8y ago
    Many thanks to the insight how things went from inside Microsoft. I was there during the early days from the customer side, my employer was one of the selected MSFT Partners to get access to the pre-betas as a way to provide early feedback and be in the position to announce .NET based products on .NET 1.0 launch day. Still remember all the .NET early docs full of red paragraphs, WIP sections or big warnings that some areas were still in the process of being fully defined and subject to change. I always love to hear these stories.
zimablue 8y ago
Because it's built and bundled by a monopolistic company with an (at the time, maybe less now) institutional commitment to backwards compatibility forever. Winforms could have been the worst thing ever written and it would still be around and maintained. See WPF (not the worst but not much loved), that will live a long time, even with Microsoft seeming to back off on forever-backwards-compatability.
- tomc1985 8y ago
  True... I wish more companies and developers would have that kind of commitment. Out of all the widget kits I have played with WinForms is still my favorite. (XUL is a close second)

Talk about a back-handed compliment! WinForms is the original and best... and I think the only widget kit from it's generation still around and maintained

pjmlp 8y ago

Actually Delphi VCL is older than WinForms and is still around as well, and much better because Delphi always compiled to native code, which was a disappointment for me that .NET didnßt follow the same model and only had NGEN a kind of approximation, given Anders being the main architect on .NET.

shawnb576 8y ago
Anders was primarily focused on C#. He contributed greatly to some of the pre-FX frameworks (WFC), but once the VJ++ injunction happened, MS was very focused on getting a modern language out into the world. The part that you are referencing was part of the CLR (nee COM+) organization. This native compilation didn't happen for a couple of reasons: 1. Serviceability - the idea was that we wanted to be able to roll out new assemblies with fixes (remember this was in the "oh shit" phase of security awareness at MS) 2. Optimizations - there was an idea that you wanted different JIT to happen based on end machine architecture, server vs client, etc. 3. Size - at this point the size of the resulting binaries (for distribution) was still a concern. At that point it seemed better to have fat frameworks updated by Windows Update, and smaller apps that depended on that. Many of these reasons seems less compelling now. MS was often a bubble in those days. I left in 2012 but it seems better now and it shows in their products.
- pjmlp 8y ago
  Many thanks to the insight how things went from inside Microsoft. I was there during the early days from the customer side, my employer was one of the selected MSFT Partners to get access to the pre-betas as a way to provide early feedback and be in the position to announce .NET based products on .NET 1.0 launch day. Still remember all the .NET early docs full of red paragraphs, WIP sections or big warnings that some areas were still in the process of being fully defined and subject to change. I always love to hear these stories.

zimablue 8y ago

Because it's built and bundled by a monopolistic company with an (at the time, maybe less now) institutional commitment to backwards compatibility forever. Winforms could have been the worst thing ever written and it would still be around and maintained. See WPF (not the worst but not much loved), that will live a long time, even with Microsoft seeming to back off on forever-backwards-compatability.

tomc1985 8y ago
True... I wish more companies and developers would have that kind of commitment. Out of all the widget kits I have played with WinForms is still my favorite. (XUL is a close second)