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There is no efficient negotiation technique that works consistently for men either, you need to understand that people need to look at their situation and figur

There is no efficient negotiation technique that works consistently for men either, you need to understand that people need to look at their situation and figure out the optimal solutions for themselves rather than expect others to give them everything w/o effort, like a forced salary bump based on gender (that's one way to ruin anything remotely close to pay based on merit - hypocrisy much?) would. Now I realize it's part of human nature to try and get as much as possible for as little as possible, but this takes it way too far. You must be really daft if can you look at a bunch of stats like "women are paid 30% less than men" and then tell yourself "YES! this is a problem that I completely understand, I understand everything about this and what these people say is exactly what happens in the real world, we have to fix this". What the hell does "as assertive as men" even mean. Is it some caricature of a man stomping his boss' desk to establish dominance? You're either assertive naturally or you're not, this applies to men or women. Fakes are easily spotted and ignored. Socially withdrawn/inept people or autistic people constantly draw the short straws when negotiating because there's no chance for them to be even close to remotely assertive even though in a STUDYYYYY the "scientists" could claim that "they were as assertive as others" just because they tried (unsuccessfully — a detail so easy to omit/ignore). You don't just go "ok now I'm going to be ASSERTIVE" and suddenly have everyone go your way, if you haven't developed that ability since childhood (or at least for a damn while), at which point you're using it by default. Jfc, we live too relaxed lives, we have no problems so we invent some.

SolaceQuantum 8y ago
You haven’t answered my query and your response is presumptuous. My claim is not as absolute as you seem to believe it is. My claim is that on a systematic level, the rate of women attempting to gain more opportunities for better pay, even when using the same negotiation strategies as men, has a smaller success rate than men in the general case. You said this is due to ineffective negotiation tactics. So, in order to show that this is not specific to gender bias, I am asking you for a negotiation tactic whose rates of success and reception do not have a correlation with gender. If you cannot provide this then I will assume your claim is sourced out of your behind, which has even less clout than the scientists you express chagrin for (at least their stuff has been peer reviewed).
- extrememacaroni 8y ago
  Yes, ineffective negotiation tactics. I'm trying to tell you that "using the same negotiation strategies as men" means nothing. There is no "negotiation strategy for men". The negotiation "strategy" is made on the spot depending on the circumstances, and is irrespective of gender. How well it works depends on how well you thought it out, and how well you can apply it, and how others respond to it. These are all interlinked — you need to reach the end of the negotiation to figure out if your plan was correct and in what amount, with the mention that if you pay attention you can alter it on the way if you find the opportunity. This is harder than it sounds in my experience at least. The premise is invalid. And as for your appeal to authority, shit, it looks like food for the echo chamber to me. Stats created to propagate a meme, peer reviewed or not.
  - SolaceQuantum 8y ago
    My statement does not imply that there are negotiation strategies for men. It is the same negotiation strategies that men also use. If you can show me a specific study where there is effective negotiation strategies that do not have correlation with gender, then I’d like to see that. Otherwise you’re doing the equivalent of being a new hire at a codebase and complaining it’s shit without taking time to understand any of it. Without appropriate statistical analysis of a situation there is no way to objectively confirm or deny a phenomenon existing. This will be my final response as I don’t believe you are engaging this discussion with a rational mindset.
    - extrememacaroni 8y ago
      Your current correlation with the gender is forced, unless you exhausted any other possibilities. Which I really freaking doubt, because you know, real world complexity and all. Assuming the one thing that I'd be willing to give at least A BIT OF credence to, that is in the gender-related sphere, that women more commonly have personality traits that make them worse at negotiating, I still don't see why we should try to fix that on the employer's side. Educate the women to negotiate instead, from a young age. Giving rewards to those who don't deserve them will lead to sloppiness and bad quality work, and the outrage of those who deserve them. Sounds to me like "it has to be correlated to gender" was a quick solution to get some quick stats published.

SolaceQuantum 8y ago

You haven’t answered my query and your response is presumptuous. My claim is not as absolute as you seem to believe it is. My claim is that on a systematic level, the rate of women attempting to gain more opportunities for better pay, even when using the same negotiation strategies as men, has a smaller success rate than men in the general case. You said this is due to ineffective negotiation tactics. So, in order to show that this is not specific to gender bias, I am asking you for a negotiation tactic whose rates of success and reception do not have a correlation with gender. If you cannot provide this then I will assume your claim is sourced out of your behind, which has even less clout than the scientists you express chagrin for (at least their stuff has been peer reviewed).

extrememacaroni 8y ago
Yes, ineffective negotiation tactics. I'm trying to tell you that "using the same negotiation strategies as men" means nothing. There is no "negotiation strategy for men". The negotiation "strategy" is made on the spot depending on the circumstances, and is irrespective of gender. How well it works depends on how well you thought it out, and how well you can apply it, and how others respond to it. These are all interlinked — you need to reach the end of the negotiation to figure out if your plan was correct and in what amount, with the mention that if you pay attention you can alter it on the way if you find the opportunity. This is harder than it sounds in my experience at least. The premise is invalid. And as for your appeal to authority, shit, it looks like food for the echo chamber to me. Stats created to propagate a meme, peer reviewed or not.
- SolaceQuantum 8y ago
  My statement does not imply that there are negotiation strategies for men. It is the same negotiation strategies that men also use. If you can show me a specific study where there is effective negotiation strategies that do not have correlation with gender, then I’d like to see that. Otherwise you’re doing the equivalent of being a new hire at a codebase and complaining it’s shit without taking time to understand any of it. Without appropriate statistical analysis of a situation there is no way to objectively confirm or deny a phenomenon existing. This will be my final response as I don’t believe you are engaging this discussion with a rational mindset.
  - extrememacaroni 8y ago
    Your current correlation with the gender is forced, unless you exhausted any other possibilities. Which I really freaking doubt, because you know, real world complexity and all. Assuming the one thing that I'd be willing to give at least A BIT OF credence to, that is in the gender-related sphere, that women more commonly have personality traits that make them worse at negotiating, I still don't see why we should try to fix that on the employer's side. Educate the women to negotiate instead, from a young age. Giving rewards to those who don't deserve them will lead to sloppiness and bad quality work, and the outrage of those who deserve them. Sounds to me like "it has to be correlated to gender" was a quick solution to get some quick stats published.