6 ms·

First, the people most likely to buy meatless products weren’t part of their existing customer base, so there is no cannibalization. I'd like to suggest that t

First, the people most likely to buy meatless products weren’t part of their existing customer base, so there is no cannibalization. I'd like to suggest that the term "cannibalization" should be used gently when applied to a meat company. [ I would also like to take a look at your comment in terms of assertions because I'm having a hard time parsing it. - People who want meatless products aren't buying meat so they're an expansion opportunity. I think that's a fair assessment. - Meatless products may not be big sellers but they're good PR. I'm not sure about this. - People are unaware of global trends and are self-centered AND - self-centred people see meatless burgers as a sign of global change THEREFORE - making a meatless burger is good PR, so much so that not doing it is crazy. Are you sure that last part makes any sense at all? It feels like an emotional appeal that doesn't really connect. FWIW, if I were running a meat company I would be comparing the PR value of a meatless burger with the expense of tooling up an entire meat-free production and packing line. I think I'd need real sales to justify that outlay.

toufiqbarhamov 8y ago
Given that that the desires and wishes I referred to are, even by the standards of a truly cynical person, ultimately altruistic I’m going to disagree with your characterization of what I said as boiling down to “self centered.” I would rather say, blinded by hope or a desperate desire to see environmental catastrophe averted, which has a very different character from what people tend to mean by self-centered. Then what we have more closely resembles the following: People looking for hope around every corner, unaware of just how desirable meat is in much of the (rapidly) developing world, might look at a move like this and conclude that this is a sign of a sea-change. Given that I was responding to someone who saw this in the same terms as the move from film to digital photography perhaps you can see what I meant. As to expenses, this company is buying the meatless producers outright, no retooling required.
munk-a 8y ago
I'd also disagree with - People who want meatless products aren't buying meat so they're an expansion opportunity. I think that's a fair assessment. I think that the desire to eat meat-like products is much lower than a lot of people assume in vegetarian/vegan people. Products like Seitan and other "meat texture" items have always done poorly when compared to vegetarian/vegan offerings that simply omit any meat-like ingredients, some people don't like the texture of meat and those that do find near-meat but not meat products to always fall short - sort of like (all)gluten free bread, it exists and you can buy it, but it feels like having a mouth full of sand. If it's late and you're itching for a slice of toast but can't have it it's just better to find whole alternatives, nuts, maybe something involving harissa. I think imitation foods will always end up falling flat because they're imitations - and there is some psychological reinforcement there that keeps us from saying "close enough" even when it gets really close - probably the same effect that makes people try to call backsies if they fail the pepsi challenge.
- taude 8y ago
  I agree about the "desire" to eat meat-like products with the vegetarian/vegan set. None of my vegetarian/vegan are into the fake meats at all. Most don't even try it once. I think the market for this type of fake meat are meat eaters with an environmental awareness.
  - jkaplowitz 8y ago
    Agreed - also, both environmental awareness and nutritional/health awareness can justify eating less meat than the typical Canadian, American, German, Argentine, Brazilian, etc.
  - gpm 8y ago
    I'm pretty sure the market for this product is meat eaters (vegetarians too, but less of them) trying to serve burgers to a group of people that includes vegetarians.
    - Angostura 8y ago
      As a sample size of 1, I love meat but I know that it is environmentally pretty disastrous. I'm waiting avidly for impossible burger-type meat substitutes to be available so I cam shift my consumption, and some of my family consumption. By contrast, I would never serve 'meat-alikes' to my vegetarian friends. I always cook them proper veggie dishes because many of them don't like the flavours and textures they associate with dead animals.
      - gpm 8y ago
        Also a sample size of 1, but I'm the exact type of vegetarian you're describing (don't like meat because of flavor and texture) and probably get served half a dozen fake burgers a year. It's usually (not always) in settings where a large number of people are being served food. Think "union barbecue" not "dinner party".
  - maxxxxx 8y ago
    I like veggie burgers from time to time. It's not so much about the meat but ketchup with mayonnaise, onions and pickles on a roll feels very satisfying to me. But in general I am also not much into meat like products.
listenallyall 8y ago
Not being able to "parse" the above comment is on you, not its author. When else have you heard the goings-on at Maple Leaf Meat Co? That's right, never. Further, in what other context has someone expressed "very encouraging" (the grandparent) about a meat producer? Exceptionally rare, the only news meat producers make is as the cause of some environmental, labor, or health disaster. Look, they don't care much about PR among consumers, they don't sell to them. But it is nice to be in the news for something positive for a change. PR within the food-supply industry, now that IS important, and this will certainly make news there, perhaps repositioning this company as a market pioneer. But the real reason they are adding plantburgers to their offerings is because purchasers, in virtually every industry, prefer (often mandated) to reduce the number of suppliers and consolidate orders. Maple Leaf wants to continue to provide one-stop shopping to its customers, it knows its meat orders are at risk if customers have to go elsewhere for these plantburgers. They obviously have seen more demand, or at least inquiries, and they are filling that need.
- slededit 8y ago
  > Look, they don't care much about PR among consumers, they don't sell to them. Actually they do - directly in the grocery store there is Maple Leaf branded meat. Further they have PR commercials on all the time about how happy and healthy the farms are. Your analysis is flat out wrong.
  - listenallyall 8y ago
    > flat out wrong I'll bet that felt good to say. If anything, the fact that Maple Leaf is a consumer brand (unlike US giants Cargill, National Beef, JBS) amplifies my point -- the positive PR can help position the company as an environmentally-conscious market leader in the minds of wholesale buyers AND individual consumers. Since the original post, Maple Leaf's announcement was covered by publications such as Food & Drink International, GlobalMeatNews.com, FoodBev.com, Agribusiness Intelligence, just-food.com (these are the top results of a Google search of "maple leaf plant burger") -- in other words, trade publications, the exact types of industry news outlets I described. Or maybe you'll tell me I'm wrong again because you regularly peruse the pages of Global Meat News. I don't see how your fact-check contradicts any substantial part of my post. Meat producers don't normally make news unless it is highly negative. The announcement signaled to purchasers -- wholesale or consumer -- that Maple Leaf can continue to be their preferred, single source of meat, and now, meat-ish products like a veggie burger.
deleted 8y ago
[deleted]
AnIdiotOnTheNet 8y ago
> I'd like to suggest that the term "cannibalization" should be used gently when applied to a meat company. When lab grown meat becomes a thing, it will be possible to have ethical cannibalism. I expect it'll be really taboo at first, but over time I imagine that will change and before long people will be eating their favorite celebrities at restaurants and in TV dinners. Shit's about to get real weird in food culture.

toufiqbarhamov 8y ago

Given that that the desires and wishes I referred to are, even by the standards of a truly cynical person, ultimately altruistic I’m going to disagree with your characterization of what I said as boiling down to “self centered.” I would rather say, blinded by hope or a desperate desire to see environmental catastrophe averted, which has a very different character from what people tend to mean by self-centered. Then what we have more closely resembles the following: People looking for hope around every corner, unaware of just how desirable meat is in much of the (rapidly) developing world, might look at a move like this and conclude that this is a sign of a sea-change. Given that I was responding to someone who saw this in the same terms as the move from film to digital photography perhaps you can see what I meant. As to expenses, this company is buying the meatless producers outright, no retooling required.

munk-a 8y ago

I'd also disagree with - People who want meatless products aren't buying meat so they're an expansion opportunity. I think that's a fair assessment. I think that the desire to eat meat-like products is much lower than a lot of people assume in vegetarian/vegan people. Products like Seitan and other "meat texture" items have always done poorly when compared to vegetarian/vegan offerings that simply omit any meat-like ingredients, some people don't like the texture of meat and those that do find near-meat but not meat products to always fall short - sort of like (all)gluten free bread, it exists and you can buy it, but it feels like having a mouth full of sand. If it's late and you're itching for a slice of toast but can't have it it's just better to find whole alternatives, nuts, maybe something involving harissa. I think imitation foods will always end up falling flat because they're imitations - and there is some psychological reinforcement there that keeps us from saying "close enough" even when it gets really close - probably the same effect that makes people try to call backsies if they fail the pepsi challenge.

taude 8y ago
I agree about the "desire" to eat meat-like products with the vegetarian/vegan set. None of my vegetarian/vegan are into the fake meats at all. Most don't even try it once. I think the market for this type of fake meat are meat eaters with an environmental awareness.
- jkaplowitz 8y ago
  Agreed - also, both environmental awareness and nutritional/health awareness can justify eating less meat than the typical Canadian, American, German, Argentine, Brazilian, etc.
- gpm 8y ago
  I'm pretty sure the market for this product is meat eaters (vegetarians too, but less of them) trying to serve burgers to a group of people that includes vegetarians.
  - Angostura 8y ago
    As a sample size of 1, I love meat but I know that it is environmentally pretty disastrous. I'm waiting avidly for impossible burger-type meat substitutes to be available so I cam shift my consumption, and some of my family consumption. By contrast, I would never serve 'meat-alikes' to my vegetarian friends. I always cook them proper veggie dishes because many of them don't like the flavours and textures they associate with dead animals.
    - gpm 8y ago
      Also a sample size of 1, but I'm the exact type of vegetarian you're describing (don't like meat because of flavor and texture) and probably get served half a dozen fake burgers a year. It's usually (not always) in settings where a large number of people are being served food. Think "union barbecue" not "dinner party".
- maxxxxx 8y ago
  I like veggie burgers from time to time. It's not so much about the meat but ketchup with mayonnaise, onions and pickles on a roll feels very satisfying to me. But in general I am also not much into meat like products.

listenallyall 8y ago

Not being able to "parse" the above comment is on you, not its author. When else have you heard the goings-on at Maple Leaf Meat Co? That's right, never. Further, in what other context has someone expressed "very encouraging" (the grandparent) about a meat producer? Exceptionally rare, the only news meat producers make is as the cause of some environmental, labor, or health disaster. Look, they don't care much about PR among consumers, they don't sell to them. But it is nice to be in the news for something positive for a change. PR within the food-supply industry, now that IS important, and this will certainly make news there, perhaps repositioning this company as a market pioneer. But the real reason they are adding plantburgers to their offerings is because purchasers, in virtually every industry, prefer (often mandated) to reduce the number of suppliers and consolidate orders. Maple Leaf wants to continue to provide one-stop shopping to its customers, it knows its meat orders are at risk if customers have to go elsewhere for these plantburgers. They obviously have seen more demand, or at least inquiries, and they are filling that need.

slededit 8y ago
> Look, they don't care much about PR among consumers, they don't sell to them. Actually they do - directly in the grocery store there is Maple Leaf branded meat. Further they have PR commercials on all the time about how happy and healthy the farms are. Your analysis is flat out wrong.
- listenallyall 8y ago
  > flat out wrong I'll bet that felt good to say. If anything, the fact that Maple Leaf is a consumer brand (unlike US giants Cargill, National Beef, JBS) amplifies my point -- the positive PR can help position the company as an environmentally-conscious market leader in the minds of wholesale buyers AND individual consumers. Since the original post, Maple Leaf's announcement was covered by publications such as Food & Drink International, GlobalMeatNews.com, FoodBev.com, Agribusiness Intelligence, just-food.com (these are the top results of a Google search of "maple leaf plant burger") -- in other words, trade publications, the exact types of industry news outlets I described. Or maybe you'll tell me I'm wrong again because you regularly peruse the pages of Global Meat News. I don't see how your fact-check contradicts any substantial part of my post. Meat producers don't normally make news unless it is highly negative. The announcement signaled to purchasers -- wholesale or consumer -- that Maple Leaf can continue to be their preferred, single source of meat, and now, meat-ish products like a veggie burger.

deleted 8y ago

[deleted]

AnIdiotOnTheNet 8y ago

> I'd like to suggest that the term "cannibalization" should be used gently when applied to a meat company. When lab grown meat becomes a thing, it will be possible to have ethical cannibalism. I expect it'll be really taboo at first, but over time I imagine that will change and before long people will be eating their favorite celebrities at restaurants and in TV dinners. Shit's about to get real weird in food culture.