6 ms·

Sounds like they don't negotiate efficiently. "Please give me a raise" is not efficient negotiation, no matter how aggressively or often you say it.

SolaceQuantum 8y ago
Note that aggressive tactics are not as effective when women do them. We also have studies that state that women who attempt to be assertive similar to men are not received as well as men. So women are disadvantaged because there is no way to ask for a raise or negotiate as effectively as a man in the general case.
- extrememacaroni 8y ago
  Like I said, inefficient negotiation.
  - deleted 8y ago
    [deleted]
  - SolaceQuantum 8y ago
    Please suggest an efficient negotiation that is proven to work for women at the same rates as it works for men.
    - extrememacaroni 8y ago
      There is no efficient negotiation technique that works consistently for men either, you need to understand that people need to look at their situation and figure out the optimal solutions for themselves rather than expect others to give them everything w/o effort, like a forced salary bump based on gender (that's one way to ruin anything remotely close to pay based on merit - hypocrisy much?) would. Now I realize it's part of human nature to try and get as much as possible for as little as possible, but this takes it way too far. You must be really daft if can you look at a bunch of stats like "women are paid 30% less than men" and then tell yourself "YES! this is a problem that I completely understand, I understand everything about this and what these people say is exactly what happens in the real world, we have to fix this". What the hell does "as assertive as men" even mean. Is it some caricature of a man stomping his boss' desk to establish dominance? You're either assertive naturally or you're not, this applies to men or women. Fakes are easily spotted and ignored. Socially withdrawn/inept people or autistic people constantly draw the short straws when negotiating because there's no chance for them to be even close to remotely assertive even though in a STUDYYYYY the "scientists" could claim that "they were as assertive as others" just because they tried (unsuccessfully — a detail so easy to omit/ignore). You don't just go "ok now I'm going to be ASSERTIVE" and suddenly have everyone go your way, if you haven't developed that ability since childhood (or at least for a damn while), at which point you're using it by default. Jfc, we live too relaxed lives, we have no problems so we invent some.
      - SolaceQuantum 8y ago
        You haven’t answered my query and your response is presumptuous. My claim is not as absolute as you seem to believe it is. My claim is that on a systematic level, the rate of women attempting to gain more opportunities for better pay, even when using the same negotiation strategies as men, has a smaller success rate than men in the general case. You said this is due to ineffective negotiation tactics. So, in order to show that this is not specific to gender bias, I am asking you for a negotiation tactic whose rates of success and reception do not have a correlation with gender. If you cannot provide this then I will assume your claim is sourced out of your behind, which has even less clout than the scientists you express chagrin for (at least their stuff has been peer reviewed).
        extrememacaroni 8y ago
        Yes, ineffective negotiation tactics. I'm trying to tell you that "using the same negotiation strategies as men" means nothing. There is no "negotiation strategy for men". The negotiation "strategy" is made on the spot depending on the circumstances, and is irrespective of gender. How well it works depends on how well you thought it out, and how well you can apply it, and how others respond to it. These are all interlinked — you need to reach the end of the negotiation to figure out if your plan was correct and in what amount, with the mention that if you pay attention you can alter it on the way if you find the opportunity. This is harder than it sounds in my experience at least. The premise is invalid. And as for your appeal to authority, shit, it looks like food for the echo chamber to me. Stats created to propagate a meme, peer reviewed or not.
        SolaceQuantum 8y ago
        My statement does not imply that there are negotiation strategies for men. It is the same negotiation strategies that men also use. If you can show me a specific study where there is effective negotiation strategies that do not have correlation with gender, then I’d like to see that. Otherwise you’re doing the equivalent of being a new hire at a codebase and complaining it’s shit without taking time to understand any of it. Without appropriate statistical analysis of a situation there is no way to objectively confirm or deny a phenomenon existing. This will be my final response as I don’t believe you are engaging this discussion with a rational mindset.
    - collyw 8y ago
      I would suggest that flirting probably works more effectively for women. While not salary negotiations, it certainly seemed to work during the TV show the apprentice for other negotiations. I never saw any men use that tactic.
moate 8y ago
Possible counterpoint conclusion: when a woman says "please give me a raise" and a man says "please give me a raise" people are more likely to listen to a man. You're injecting a whole lot of assumption on how these negotiations are happening.
- extrememacaroni 8y ago
  You're basing this off of statistics that ignore how these negotiations happen. Or really any sort of nuance that makes a difference in the real world. Like the quality of work the individual outputs or how much the company needs them, or how well they're perceived by their peers overall, or just how smartly they approach their employer when negotiating. "Please give me a raise" is not a negotiation. To negotiate properly you need a trump card, "please give me a raise" doesn't show one.
- paulie_a 8y ago
  Who the hell says "please give me a raise"? You've already put yourself in a position of weakness, man or woman. I deserve a raise because...3 reasons. I have accomplished xyz and want a raise. In my younger years I said I wanted a raise of 20 percent immediately after telling my manager that I told a coworker "to go fuck himself" twice.
throwaway2048 8y ago
You can play this game all day, at what point is the other party at fault?

SolaceQuantum 8y ago

Note that aggressive tactics are not as effective when women do them. We also have studies that state that women who attempt to be assertive similar to men are not received as well as men. So women are disadvantaged because there is no way to ask for a raise or negotiate as effectively as a man in the general case.

extrememacaroni 8y ago
Like I said, inefficient negotiation.
- deleted 8y ago
  [deleted]
- SolaceQuantum 8y ago
  Please suggest an efficient negotiation that is proven to work for women at the same rates as it works for men.
  - extrememacaroni 8y ago
    There is no efficient negotiation technique that works consistently for men either, you need to understand that people need to look at their situation and figure out the optimal solutions for themselves rather than expect others to give them everything w/o effort, like a forced salary bump based on gender (that's one way to ruin anything remotely close to pay based on merit - hypocrisy much?) would. Now I realize it's part of human nature to try and get as much as possible for as little as possible, but this takes it way too far. You must be really daft if can you look at a bunch of stats like "women are paid 30% less than men" and then tell yourself "YES! this is a problem that I completely understand, I understand everything about this and what these people say is exactly what happens in the real world, we have to fix this". What the hell does "as assertive as men" even mean. Is it some caricature of a man stomping his boss' desk to establish dominance? You're either assertive naturally or you're not, this applies to men or women. Fakes are easily spotted and ignored. Socially withdrawn/inept people or autistic people constantly draw the short straws when negotiating because there's no chance for them to be even close to remotely assertive even though in a STUDYYYYY the "scientists" could claim that "they were as assertive as others" just because they tried (unsuccessfully — a detail so easy to omit/ignore). You don't just go "ok now I'm going to be ASSERTIVE" and suddenly have everyone go your way, if you haven't developed that ability since childhood (or at least for a damn while), at which point you're using it by default. Jfc, we live too relaxed lives, we have no problems so we invent some.
    - SolaceQuantum 8y ago
      You haven’t answered my query and your response is presumptuous. My claim is not as absolute as you seem to believe it is. My claim is that on a systematic level, the rate of women attempting to gain more opportunities for better pay, even when using the same negotiation strategies as men, has a smaller success rate than men in the general case. You said this is due to ineffective negotiation tactics. So, in order to show that this is not specific to gender bias, I am asking you for a negotiation tactic whose rates of success and reception do not have a correlation with gender. If you cannot provide this then I will assume your claim is sourced out of your behind, which has even less clout than the scientists you express chagrin for (at least their stuff has been peer reviewed).
      - extrememacaroni 8y ago
        Yes, ineffective negotiation tactics. I'm trying to tell you that "using the same negotiation strategies as men" means nothing. There is no "negotiation strategy for men". The negotiation "strategy" is made on the spot depending on the circumstances, and is irrespective of gender. How well it works depends on how well you thought it out, and how well you can apply it, and how others respond to it. These are all interlinked — you need to reach the end of the negotiation to figure out if your plan was correct and in what amount, with the mention that if you pay attention you can alter it on the way if you find the opportunity. This is harder than it sounds in my experience at least. The premise is invalid. And as for your appeal to authority, shit, it looks like food for the echo chamber to me. Stats created to propagate a meme, peer reviewed or not.
        SolaceQuantum 8y ago
        My statement does not imply that there are negotiation strategies for men. It is the same negotiation strategies that men also use. If you can show me a specific study where there is effective negotiation strategies that do not have correlation with gender, then I’d like to see that. Otherwise you’re doing the equivalent of being a new hire at a codebase and complaining it’s shit without taking time to understand any of it. Without appropriate statistical analysis of a situation there is no way to objectively confirm or deny a phenomenon existing. This will be my final response as I don’t believe you are engaging this discussion with a rational mindset.
  - collyw 8y ago
    I would suggest that flirting probably works more effectively for women. While not salary negotiations, it certainly seemed to work during the TV show the apprentice for other negotiations. I never saw any men use that tactic.

moate 8y ago

Possible counterpoint conclusion: when a woman says "please give me a raise" and a man says "please give me a raise" people are more likely to listen to a man. You're injecting a whole lot of assumption on how these negotiations are happening.

extrememacaroni 8y ago
You're basing this off of statistics that ignore how these negotiations happen. Or really any sort of nuance that makes a difference in the real world. Like the quality of work the individual outputs or how much the company needs them, or how well they're perceived by their peers overall, or just how smartly they approach their employer when negotiating. "Please give me a raise" is not a negotiation. To negotiate properly you need a trump card, "please give me a raise" doesn't show one.
paulie_a 8y ago
Who the hell says "please give me a raise"? You've already put yourself in a position of weakness, man or woman. I deserve a raise because...3 reasons. I have accomplished xyz and want a raise. In my younger years I said I wanted a raise of 20 percent immediately after telling my manager that I told a coworker "to go fuck himself" twice.

throwaway2048 8y ago

You can play this game all day, at what point is the other party at fault?