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Women who do negotiate aggressively are often less likely to be granted what they ask for, also. There’s a new study I recall that women ask for raises at the s
by SolaceQuantum 8y ago
Women who do negotiate aggressively are often less likely to be granted what they ask for, also. There’s a new study I recall that women ask for raises at the same rate as men but are not granted raises at the same rate as men.
- extrememacaroni 8y agoSounds like they don't negotiate efficiently. "Please give me a raise" is not efficient negotiation, no matter how aggressively or often you say it.
- SolaceQuantum 8y agoNote that aggressive tactics are not as effective when women do them. We also have studies that state that women who attempt to be assertive similar to men are not received as well as men. So women are disadvantaged because there is no way to ask for a raise or negotiate as effectively as a man in the general case.
- extrememacaroni 8y agoLike I said, inefficient negotiation.
- deleted 8y ago[deleted]
- SolaceQuantum 8y agoPlease suggest an efficient negotiation that is proven to work for women at the same rates as it works for men.
- extrememacaroni 8y agoThere is no efficient negotiation technique that works consistently for men either, you need to understand that people need to look at their situation and figure out the optimal solutions for themselves rather than expect others to give them everything w/o effort, like a forced salary bump based on gender (that's one way to ruin anything remotely close to pay based on merit - hypocrisy much?) would. Now I realize it's part of human nature to try and get as much as possible for as little as possible, but this takes it way too far. You must be really daft if can you look at a bunch of stats like "women are paid 30% less than men" and then tell yourself "YES! this is a problem that I completely understand, I understand everything about this and what these people say is exactly what happens in the real world, we have to fix this". What the hell does "as assertive as men" even mean. Is it some caricature of a man stomping his boss' desk to establish dominance? You're either assertive naturally or you're not, this applies to men or women. Fakes are easily spotted and ignored. Socially withdrawn/inept people or autistic people constantly draw the short straws when negotiating because there's no chance for them to be even close to remotely assertive even though in a STUDYYYYY the "scientists" could claim that "they were as assertive as others" just because they tried (unsuccessfully — a detail so easy to omit/ignore). You don't just go "ok now I'm going to be ASSERTIVE" and suddenly have everyone go your way, if you haven't developed that ability since childhood (or at least for a damn while), at which point you're using it by default. Jfc, we live too relaxed lives, we have no problems so we invent some.
- SolaceQuantum 8y agoYou haven’t answered my query and your response is presumptuous. My claim is not as absolute as you seem to believe it is. My claim is that on a systematic level, the rate of women attempting to gain more opportunities for better pay, even when using the same negotiation strategies as men, has a smaller success rate than men in the general case. You said this is due to ineffective negotiation tactics. So, in order to show that this is not specific to gender bias, I am asking you for a negotiation tactic whose rates of success and reception do not have a correlation with gender. If you cannot provide this then I will assume your claim is sourced out of your behind, which has even less clout than the scientists you express chagrin for (at least their stuff has been peer reviewed).
- collyw 8y agoI would suggest that flirting probably works more effectively for women. While not salary negotiations, it certainly seemed to work during the TV show the apprentice for other negotiations. I never saw any men use that tactic.
- moate 8y agoPossible counterpoint conclusion: when a woman says "please give me a raise" and a man says "please give me a raise" people are more likely to listen to a man. You're injecting a whole lot of assumption on how these negotiations are happening.
- extrememacaroni 8y agoYou're basing this off of statistics that ignore how these negotiations happen. Or really any sort of nuance that makes a difference in the real world. Like the quality of work the individual outputs or how much the company needs them, or how well they're perceived by their peers overall, or just how smartly they approach their employer when negotiating. "Please give me a raise" is not a negotiation. To negotiate properly you need a trump card, "please give me a raise" doesn't show one.
- paulie_a 8y agoWho the hell says "please give me a raise"? You've already put yourself in a position of weakness, man or woman. I deserve a raise because...3 reasons. I have accomplished xyz and want a raise. In my younger years I said I wanted a raise of 20 percent immediately after telling my manager that I told a coworker "to go fuck himself" twice.
- throwaway2048 8y agoYou can play this game all day, at what point is the other party at fault?
- jameane 8y agoIt depends. I have been penalized for negotiating as well as have been rewarded. I do remember distinctly irritating a hiring manager when I responded to her inquiry of "how much do you want to make" with "whatever is the prevailing market rate is" She wanted me to give her a number and I politely played hard ball not wanting to undersell myself. Anyway the hiring manager decided that approach made me difficult. Women are often penalized for not being "nice" in the workplace as well. It may happen in the hiring process or show up later in performance reviews. It is a delicate dance of negotiating, being strong and being "non-threatening."
- SolaceQuantum 8y agoI would like to know if you've been penalized for negotiating as well as rewarded at the same or similar rates of your peers of various gender identities. Do you know that? I would presume no negotiation tactic has a perfect 0% or 100% success rate for any given gender expression, but I am curious about the relative rates for them and how this can best benefit all related parties.
- belorn 8y agoIn that study, was the statistical risk that a female employee would leave the company because not getting a raise the same as for a male employees?