3 ms·

What I get from people on the left is that an unequal outcome is indicative of racism, however subtle that racism is. The only other explanations for an unequal

What I get from people on the left is that an unequal outcome is indicative of racism, however subtle that racism is. The only other explanations for an unequal outcome are biological differences between races (do not want to get into that) and races haves advantages over others from past history.

hannasanarion 8y ago
Unequal outcome is not indicative of racism, it is racism. That's the point: racism is an outcome, not an intent. An unknowing, unfeeling beurocratic system can be racist, even if there isn't a speck of racial bias in the hearts of the practitioners and designers, simply due to historical quirks as you point out, or design mistakes.
- tomp 8y ago
  So your argument is that Harvard is racist if it doesn’t discriminate against Asian applicants? So that they are not overrepresented among the student population?!
  - hannasanarion 8y ago
    No, my argument is that "it's just numbers! they don't have a soul!" is not a valid defense from accusations of racism, because the statistical systems can be racist in their design, and there is no "racist meter" you can apply to check. The only way to know if a system is fair or not is to check whether the results you're getting are the ones you want.
    - toasterlovin 8y ago
      FWIW, your usage of the the term 'racism' is not at all what most people mean when they use the term. The vast, overwhelming majority of people do not think in terms of systems. They think in terms of agency.
      - 113 8y ago
        "vast, overwhelming majority of people" You gonna back that up?
        toasterlovin 8y ago
        https://www.dictionary.com/browse/racism https://www.dictionary.com/browse/racism https://www.dictionary.com/browse/racist https://www.dictionary.com/browse/racist No mention of what the person I was responding to was talking about.
    - tomp 8y ago
      Right, and if you look at results, you see that there's too many Asian students, relative to their proportion in the general population. So how do you solve that? One way is to up the bar at the admissions, and require Asians to score better relative to other ethnicities, in order to be admitted. Do you think that makes the system fairer?
tomp 8y ago
Other possible explanations include at least culture and background (parental wealth, connections and education), possibly others.
- maceurt 8y ago
  That is what I meant by past history.
deleted 8y ago
[deleted]

hannasanarion 8y ago

Unequal outcome is not indicative of racism, it is racism. That's the point: racism is an outcome, not an intent. An unknowing, unfeeling beurocratic system can be racist, even if there isn't a speck of racial bias in the hearts of the practitioners and designers, simply due to historical quirks as you point out, or design mistakes.

tomp 8y ago
So your argument is that Harvard is racist if it doesn’t discriminate against Asian applicants? So that they are not overrepresented among the student population?!
- hannasanarion 8y ago
  No, my argument is that "it's just numbers! they don't have a soul!" is not a valid defense from accusations of racism, because the statistical systems can be racist in their design, and there is no "racist meter" you can apply to check. The only way to know if a system is fair or not is to check whether the results you're getting are the ones you want.
  - toasterlovin 8y ago
    FWIW, your usage of the the term 'racism' is not at all what most people mean when they use the term. The vast, overwhelming majority of people do not think in terms of systems. They think in terms of agency.
    - 113 8y ago
      "vast, overwhelming majority of people" You gonna back that up?
      - toasterlovin 8y ago
        https://www.dictionary.com/browse/racism https://www.dictionary.com/browse/racism https://www.dictionary.com/browse/racist https://www.dictionary.com/browse/racist No mention of what the person I was responding to was talking about.
  - tomp 8y ago
    Right, and if you look at results, you see that there's too many Asian students, relative to their proportion in the general population. So how do you solve that? One way is to up the bar at the admissions, and require Asians to score better relative to other ethnicities, in order to be admitted. Do you think that makes the system fairer?

tomp 8y ago

Other possible explanations include at least culture and background (parental wealth, connections and education), possibly others.

maceurt 8y ago
That is what I meant by past history.

deleted 8y ago

[deleted]