4 ms·

Oracle pays its long-term employees less than newjoiners, that is no news. If you think you can get a raise by switching positions within the company - wrong! Y

Oracle pays its long-term employees less than newjoiners, that is no news. If you think you can get a raise by switching positions within the company - wrong! You get exactly the same no matter the position. Also nobody in the office got a raise in years (not even the inflation rate). The only option to get some raise is to be promoted, which does not happen very often. I don't think it has anything to do with race/gender.

drugme 8y ago
So your reaction also seems to be... "whatever".
- Kephael 8y ago
  They need to LeetCode and go work elsewhere, if they want to come back then Oracle will pay them market rates.
  - totallysnowman 8y ago
    No. If you leave and come back within 2 years (I think), you get the same as you had before you had left.
    - Kephael 8y ago
      If a company wants you they will pay you market rates, you may need to present them with competing offers if you don't want to be lowballed.
      - totallysnowman 8y ago
        They don't give a ... You are just a number. Even if the hiring manager really wants you, s/he is not given the budget, so they are powerless.
- totallysnowman 8y ago
  I was trying to say they don't seem racist or discriminating to me. They just want to save as much as possible. But they seem rather oblivious to the fact the system is set in a bit demotivating way.
  - vetinari 8y ago
    Of course that's not racist, despite the efforts to frame that as such. Companies behave that way to _everyone_, get used to that. When you negotiate your salary, you have your mouth. Use it. You are the only person, who really cares, whether you earn adequately to what you bring to the table.
- hannasanarion 8y ago
  I would characterize it not as "whatever" but more like, "yeah, we already knew that Oracle is the worst employer in the industry"
sangnoir 8y ago
> Oracle pays its long-term employees less than newjoiners, that is no news. Is your choice to conflate "interns out of college" with "joiners" deliberate? Interns are a very special class of joiners and seeing them earn more than experienced professionals in similar roles is surprising, and is news - at least to me. Yuck.
- Kephael 8y ago
  College hires make more at Microsoft than experienced people as well. These companies need to pay closer to top of market for the experience level to prevent losing new hires to other companies.
- totallysnowman 8y ago
  Sorry, I simplified a little. The newjoiners I was talking about are not interns, but a fresh-from-college full-time workers. But still...
ArrayList 8y ago
I used to work for the Oracle Communications Business Unit for a few years. This is exactly true.
throwaway6788 8y ago
While at Oracle (5yrs) I’ve never seen somebody get a promotion. And at Oracle a promotion doesn’t automatically come with a raise (I understand that it rarely ever does). If anything they offer stock instead of salary to “level up” which isn’t really meant to level up so much as lock in. However the company does seem to be in a large transition - and as a result we’re seeing some divisions starved out, while others are getting fat and carefree. The division I work in accounts for the lions share of “blessed revenue”, yet we’re starved for resources and people. You can’t back fill positions, and don’t even think about new headcount. So as attrition happens, the picture gets worse. While the sister division accounts for a tiny fraction of “blessed revenue” but they have what seems like unlimited resources and headcount. The point is, your fortune at Oracle depends heavily on which division you work in, and whether or not Oracle wants your revenue. If your division is out of favor, Oracle wants your line of business to deplete through attrition - so no raises, no promotions, no new headcount and of course rif’s. If your division is appreciated - you see raises, promotions, new headcount etc. As someone else pointed out, you can’t change divisions or positions and expect a pay raise. You can’t leave and come back and expect a pay raise. If you’re at oracle you can pretty much expect stagnant career and financial growth (unless you’re TK making terrible decisions and 35mm dollars). I’m not surprised people at Oracle don’t make market pay. Or that other people systematically make more. I don’t think it has so much to do with gender though. They do systematically hire H1b’s though so that they can pay less and get that sweet sweet employee lock in.
akerro 8y ago
>Oracle pays its long-term employees less than newjoiners, that is no news Not only Oracle, it's very common practices. In my first job in the UK I worked for fin-tech. My salary on start for only 5k lower than a person who worked 20 years in IT and 13 years in this company. 14 months later I got 7k pay rise.
vonseel 8y ago
In my experience, this isn’t even close to an Oracle-specific practice. I thought it was widely-accepted wisdom that if you want to get a BIG raise, you have to shop around/move companies. We love to hope and pretend employers will act in our best interests, but at the end of the day the company only cares about its bottom line. To be transparent, I am a white male American citizen. Considering how private most Americans treat salary information, I know almost nothing about how much my peers have been paid versus what I was paid at previous companies. I will say that I have heard of people making amounts of money that made me drool, and those people were across the whole range of color and gender. On the other hand, I have also known (very) junior developers who were grossly underpaid - multiple white males and I suspect their females and minority counterparts were underpaid as well. It’s a problem, for sure. Racial income inequality is a problem and then there is the added problem that some of us just are not good at income negotiation and demanding fair or market pay. We trust the employer to give us what we deserve, when in reality, if the employer has a $120k upper limit on their hiring position, and you smile ear-to-ear at the first offer when they offer $90k; well, you just saved that company $30k per year.
- chx 8y ago
  > Considering how private most Americans treat salary information That's what #talkpay tried to break. And to show I am not just talking, I tweeted mine years ago at https://twitter.com/chx/status/594598659150389248 https://twitter.com/chx/status/594598659150389248

drugme 8y ago

So your reaction also seems to be... "whatever".

Kephael 8y ago
They need to LeetCode and go work elsewhere, if they want to come back then Oracle will pay them market rates.
- totallysnowman 8y ago
  No. If you leave and come back within 2 years (I think), you get the same as you had before you had left.
  - Kephael 8y ago
    If a company wants you they will pay you market rates, you may need to present them with competing offers if you don't want to be lowballed.
    - totallysnowman 8y ago
      They don't give a ... You are just a number. Even if the hiring manager really wants you, s/he is not given the budget, so they are powerless.
totallysnowman 8y ago
I was trying to say they don't seem racist or discriminating to me. They just want to save as much as possible. But they seem rather oblivious to the fact the system is set in a bit demotivating way.
- vetinari 8y ago
  Of course that's not racist, despite the efforts to frame that as such. Companies behave that way to _everyone_, get used to that. When you negotiate your salary, you have your mouth. Use it. You are the only person, who really cares, whether you earn adequately to what you bring to the table.
hannasanarion 8y ago
I would characterize it not as "whatever" but more like, "yeah, we already knew that Oracle is the worst employer in the industry"

sangnoir 8y ago

> Oracle pays its long-term employees less than newjoiners, that is no news. Is your choice to conflate "interns out of college" with "joiners" deliberate? Interns are a very special class of joiners and seeing them earn more than experienced professionals in similar roles is surprising, and is news - at least to me. Yuck.

Kephael 8y ago
College hires make more at Microsoft than experienced people as well. These companies need to pay closer to top of market for the experience level to prevent losing new hires to other companies.
totallysnowman 8y ago
Sorry, I simplified a little. The newjoiners I was talking about are not interns, but a fresh-from-college full-time workers. But still...

ArrayList 8y ago

I used to work for the Oracle Communications Business Unit for a few years. This is exactly true.

throwaway6788 8y ago

While at Oracle (5yrs) I’ve never seen somebody get a promotion. And at Oracle a promotion doesn’t automatically come with a raise (I understand that it rarely ever does). If anything they offer stock instead of salary to “level up” which isn’t really meant to level up so much as lock in. However the company does seem to be in a large transition - and as a result we’re seeing some divisions starved out, while others are getting fat and carefree. The division I work in accounts for the lions share of “blessed revenue”, yet we’re starved for resources and people. You can’t back fill positions, and don’t even think about new headcount. So as attrition happens, the picture gets worse. While the sister division accounts for a tiny fraction of “blessed revenue” but they have what seems like unlimited resources and headcount. The point is, your fortune at Oracle depends heavily on which division you work in, and whether or not Oracle wants your revenue. If your division is out of favor, Oracle wants your line of business to deplete through attrition - so no raises, no promotions, no new headcount and of course rif’s. If your division is appreciated - you see raises, promotions, new headcount etc. As someone else pointed out, you can’t change divisions or positions and expect a pay raise. You can’t leave and come back and expect a pay raise. If you’re at oracle you can pretty much expect stagnant career and financial growth (unless you’re TK making terrible decisions and 35mm dollars). I’m not surprised people at Oracle don’t make market pay. Or that other people systematically make more. I don’t think it has so much to do with gender though. They do systematically hire H1b’s though so that they can pay less and get that sweet sweet employee lock in.

akerro 8y ago

>Oracle pays its long-term employees less than newjoiners, that is no news Not only Oracle, it's very common practices. In my first job in the UK I worked for fin-tech. My salary on start for only 5k lower than a person who worked 20 years in IT and 13 years in this company. 14 months later I got 7k pay rise.

vonseel 8y ago

In my experience, this isn’t even close to an Oracle-specific practice. I thought it was widely-accepted wisdom that if you want to get a BIG raise, you have to shop around/move companies. We love to hope and pretend employers will act in our best interests, but at the end of the day the company only cares about its bottom line. To be transparent, I am a white male American citizen. Considering how private most Americans treat salary information, I know almost nothing about how much my peers have been paid versus what I was paid at previous companies. I will say that I have heard of people making amounts of money that made me drool, and those people were across the whole range of color and gender. On the other hand, I have also known (very) junior developers who were grossly underpaid - multiple white males and I suspect their females and minority counterparts were underpaid as well. It’s a problem, for sure. Racial income inequality is a problem and then there is the added problem that some of us just are not good at income negotiation and demanding fair or market pay. We trust the employer to give us what we deserve, when in reality, if the employer has a $120k upper limit on their hiring position, and you smile ear-to-ear at the first offer when they offer $90k; well, you just saved that company $30k per year.

chx 8y ago
> Considering how private most Americans treat salary information That's what #talkpay tried to break. And to show I am not just talking, I tweeted mine years ago at https://twitter.com/chx/status/594598659150389248 https://twitter.com/chx/status/594598659150389248