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Only 36% of US citizens support Trump[1] and yet we don't see calls for deposing him from abroad. We don't see sanctions freezing the assets of US-based multina

Only 36% of US citizens support Trump[1] and yet we don't see calls for deposing him from abroad. We don't see sanctions freezing the assets of US-based multinational corporations because Trump has shut down the US government[2]. This is essentially a coup. Recognizing an unelected oligarch is a continuation of the US's policy of undemocratic meddling in latin american countries. 1. https://www.msnbc.com/morning-joe/watch/trump-approval-falls-to-36-percent-in-new-poll-1430479939914 https://www.msnbc.com/morning-joe/watch/trump-approval-falls... 2. https://venezuelanalysis.com/analysis/14239 https://venezuelanalysis.com/analysis/14239

yholio 8y ago
There is a difference between the approval ratings of a lawfully elected leader, which include the opinions of folks who didn't even bothered to vote, and the minority support of a vile tyrant that in a free and fair election would have lost by a 2:1 - 3:1 margin. After fixing the last elections, Maduro has no greater legitimacy than the coup leader, who at least recognizes that and calls for new, fair elections.
- omegaworks 8y ago
  > in a free and fair election would have lost by a 2:1 - 3:1 margin Where are you getting that statistic from?
  - yholio 8y ago
    Maduro and his party polled somewhere in the 20-30% range in all credible publications, and that was before the mass famine and food shortages of 2018: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2018_Venezuelan_presidential_election#Public_opinion https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2018_Venezuelan_presidential_e...
    - omegaworks 8y ago
      The very opinion polls you cite "include the opinions of folks who didn't even bothered to vote." The goalposts seem to shift to wherever best supports your position, which is still the recognition of an unelected leader. A belief that the US would support someone that intends to actually restore democracy and not just use that language to sell a coup, is naive and ahistorical[1]. Their sample sizes are also ridiculously low. Do you not recall how poorly the polls predicted the 2016 result?[2] 1. https://medium.com/@CitationsPodcst/episode-25-the-banality-of-cia-curated-definitions-of-democracy-aa183c697ccc https://medium.com/@CitationsPodcst/episode-25-the-banality-... 2. https://projects.fivethirtyeight.com/2016-election-forecast/ https://projects.fivethirtyeight.com/2016-election-forecast/
      - yholio 8y ago
        The analogy with the US fails unless you are claiming the Venezuelan election was fair. Sure, Maduro could have obtained a landslide victory against all odds, but he didn't, he eliminated his adversaries and rigged the results. Sure, the people who poll against him could have staid home, but they were actually forbidden to vote for their desired candidate or in some cases physically prevented to vote at all. I'm not saying that this isn't a coup, but the idea that Maduro is a legitimate and democratically elected ruler is purely fantastical. It's a coup against an autocrat - the only way to get rid of one. The size of his loyalist kernel is irrelevant here - just the fact that he can't, hasn't and won't win in a free election.
        omegaworks 8y ago
        >The analogy with the US fails unless you are claiming the Venezuelan election was fair. Actually it does not. You're assuming that I claim the US election was also fair, legal and representative. >they were actually forbidden to vote for their desired candidate Votes are still cast on secret ballots, so I don't understand how that would even work. >It's a coup against an autocrat - the only way to get rid of one. Really? A US-instigated military coup is the only way? Historical[1] events[2] seem[3] to show otherwise. 1. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_Declaration_of_Independence https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_Declaration_of_I... 2. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carnation_Revolution https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carnation_Revolution 3. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haitian_Revolution https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haitian_Revolution
deleted 8y ago
[deleted]
toasterlovin 8y ago
Curious: what level of human misery is necessary for you to be okay with outside countries meddling in Venezuelan politics?
- omegaworks 8y ago
  Curious: are you aware of how much misery is actually caused by the US' economic sanctions? "Make the economy scream" was a statement actually uttered by a US president in response to a democratically elected socialist in Chile[1]. According to Jorge Arreaza, Venezuelan foreign minister[2]: > We cannot repatriate the profit from our company in the United States to invest it in food and medicine in Venezuela. Economic sanctions ensure that the pain of imperialism is felt by the most vulnerable[3]. We need to wake up to the misery that we impose on the world. 1. https://nsarchive2.gwu.edu/NSAEBB/NSAEBB8/nsaebb8i.htm https://nsarchive2.gwu.edu/NSAEBB/NSAEBB8/nsaebb8i.htm 2. https://venezuelanalysis.com/analysis/14239 https://venezuelanalysis.com/analysis/14239 3. https://www.thenation.com/article/trumps-sanctions-make-economic-recovery-in-venezuela-nearly-impossible/ https://www.thenation.com/article/trumps-sanctions-make-econ...
  - ipince 8y ago
    You can't just pick and choose a bad economic sanction from the past and claim all economic sanctions are bad and cause misery. The lack of food and medicine in Venezuela is purely the Venezuelan government's fault, and Jorge Arreaza (an in general, the entire Venezuelan government) has used the US as a scapegoat for the past 20 years.
    - jeffrom 8y ago
      venezuela placed gold in the bank of england as a guarantee for a loan from germany to buy food from turkey. london is currently refusing to return it despite venezuela paying back germany. the gold has doubled in value and could be used to buy food. just another piece of evidence of economic pressure actively hurting people in venezuela. https://uk.reuters.com/article/us-venezuela-gold/venezuela-gold-holdings-in-bank-of-england-soar-on-deutsche-deal-sources-idUKKCN1PF1Z8 https://uk.reuters.com/article/us-venezuela-gold/venezuela-g...
tim333 8y ago
"Guaidó was elected President of the National Assembly of Venezuela in December 2018, and was sworn in on 5 January 2019" He seems as elected as Maduro.
- AnimalMuppet 8y ago
  Well, yes, he's elected. He's not elected as President of Venezuela, though.
  - tim333 8y ago
    Well, quoting Trump's statement: >In its role as the only legitimate branch of government duly elected by the Venezuelan people, the National Assembly invoked the country's constitution to declare Nicolas Maduro illegitimate, and the office of the presidency therefore vacant.
    - omegaworks 8y ago
      It's one of those questions: do we believe the words of a notorious liar when he asserts his view of Venezuela's "legitimate branch of government," or do we believe the Venezuelan people? Is the power to choose their country's president held by the people or by the regional superpower?
AnimalMuppet 8y ago
Unelected (as president)? Yes. But what is your basis for calling him an oligarch? It sounds like you're just reaching for an insult that has certain historical overtones that you think useful.
- omegaworks 8y ago
  You're right. Guaidó was very carefully chosen[1] to not give that impression. 1. https://twitter.com/aaronjmate/status/1088704085375795200 https://twitter.com/aaronjmate/status/1088704085375795200

yholio 8y ago

There is a difference between the approval ratings of a lawfully elected leader, which include the opinions of folks who didn't even bothered to vote, and the minority support of a vile tyrant that in a free and fair election would have lost by a 2:1 - 3:1 margin. After fixing the last elections, Maduro has no greater legitimacy than the coup leader, who at least recognizes that and calls for new, fair elections.

omegaworks 8y ago
> in a free and fair election would have lost by a 2:1 - 3:1 margin Where are you getting that statistic from?
- yholio 8y ago
  Maduro and his party polled somewhere in the 20-30% range in all credible publications, and that was before the mass famine and food shortages of 2018: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2018_Venezuelan_presidential_election#Public_opinion https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2018_Venezuelan_presidential_e...
  - omegaworks 8y ago
    The very opinion polls you cite "include the opinions of folks who didn't even bothered to vote." The goalposts seem to shift to wherever best supports your position, which is still the recognition of an unelected leader. A belief that the US would support someone that intends to actually restore democracy and not just use that language to sell a coup, is naive and ahistorical[1]. Their sample sizes are also ridiculously low. Do you not recall how poorly the polls predicted the 2016 result?[2] 1. https://medium.com/@CitationsPodcst/episode-25-the-banality-of-cia-curated-definitions-of-democracy-aa183c697ccc https://medium.com/@CitationsPodcst/episode-25-the-banality-... 2. https://projects.fivethirtyeight.com/2016-election-forecast/ https://projects.fivethirtyeight.com/2016-election-forecast/
    - yholio 8y ago
      The analogy with the US fails unless you are claiming the Venezuelan election was fair. Sure, Maduro could have obtained a landslide victory against all odds, but he didn't, he eliminated his adversaries and rigged the results. Sure, the people who poll against him could have staid home, but they were actually forbidden to vote for their desired candidate or in some cases physically prevented to vote at all. I'm not saying that this isn't a coup, but the idea that Maduro is a legitimate and democratically elected ruler is purely fantastical. It's a coup against an autocrat - the only way to get rid of one. The size of his loyalist kernel is irrelevant here - just the fact that he can't, hasn't and won't win in a free election.
      - omegaworks 8y ago
        >The analogy with the US fails unless you are claiming the Venezuelan election was fair. Actually it does not. You're assuming that I claim the US election was also fair, legal and representative. >they were actually forbidden to vote for their desired candidate Votes are still cast on secret ballots, so I don't understand how that would even work. >It's a coup against an autocrat - the only way to get rid of one. Really? A US-instigated military coup is the only way? Historical[1] events[2] seem[3] to show otherwise. 1. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_Declaration_of_Independence https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_Declaration_of_I... 2. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carnation_Revolution https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carnation_Revolution 3. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haitian_Revolution https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haitian_Revolution

deleted 8y ago

[deleted]

toasterlovin 8y ago

Curious: what level of human misery is necessary for you to be okay with outside countries meddling in Venezuelan politics?

omegaworks 8y ago
Curious: are you aware of how much misery is actually caused by the US' economic sanctions? "Make the economy scream" was a statement actually uttered by a US president in response to a democratically elected socialist in Chile[1]. According to Jorge Arreaza, Venezuelan foreign minister[2]: > We cannot repatriate the profit from our company in the United States to invest it in food and medicine in Venezuela. Economic sanctions ensure that the pain of imperialism is felt by the most vulnerable[3]. We need to wake up to the misery that we impose on the world. 1. https://nsarchive2.gwu.edu/NSAEBB/NSAEBB8/nsaebb8i.htm https://nsarchive2.gwu.edu/NSAEBB/NSAEBB8/nsaebb8i.htm 2. https://venezuelanalysis.com/analysis/14239 https://venezuelanalysis.com/analysis/14239 3. https://www.thenation.com/article/trumps-sanctions-make-economic-recovery-in-venezuela-nearly-impossible/ https://www.thenation.com/article/trumps-sanctions-make-econ...
- ipince 8y ago
  You can't just pick and choose a bad economic sanction from the past and claim all economic sanctions are bad and cause misery. The lack of food and medicine in Venezuela is purely the Venezuelan government's fault, and Jorge Arreaza (an in general, the entire Venezuelan government) has used the US as a scapegoat for the past 20 years.
  - jeffrom 8y ago
    venezuela placed gold in the bank of england as a guarantee for a loan from germany to buy food from turkey. london is currently refusing to return it despite venezuela paying back germany. the gold has doubled in value and could be used to buy food. just another piece of evidence of economic pressure actively hurting people in venezuela. https://uk.reuters.com/article/us-venezuela-gold/venezuela-gold-holdings-in-bank-of-england-soar-on-deutsche-deal-sources-idUKKCN1PF1Z8 https://uk.reuters.com/article/us-venezuela-gold/venezuela-g...

tim333 8y ago

"Guaidó was elected President of the National Assembly of Venezuela in December 2018, and was sworn in on 5 January 2019" He seems as elected as Maduro.

AnimalMuppet 8y ago
Well, yes, he's elected. He's not elected as President of Venezuela, though.
- tim333 8y ago
  Well, quoting Trump's statement: >In its role as the only legitimate branch of government duly elected by the Venezuelan people, the National Assembly invoked the country's constitution to declare Nicolas Maduro illegitimate, and the office of the presidency therefore vacant.
  - omegaworks 8y ago
    It's one of those questions: do we believe the words of a notorious liar when he asserts his view of Venezuela's "legitimate branch of government," or do we believe the Venezuelan people? Is the power to choose their country's president held by the people or by the regional superpower?

AnimalMuppet 8y ago

Unelected (as president)? Yes. But what is your basis for calling him an oligarch? It sounds like you're just reaching for an insult that has certain historical overtones that you think useful.

omegaworks 8y ago
You're right. Guaidó was very carefully chosen[1] to not give that impression. 1. https://twitter.com/aaronjmate/status/1088704085375795200 https://twitter.com/aaronjmate/status/1088704085375795200