4 ms·

There is no shortage of jobs for someone working at Oracle. If someone feels underpaid, they can just jump ship. I have friends who work at Oracle and their sal

There is no shortage of jobs for someone working at Oracle. If someone feels underpaid, they can just jump ship. I have friends who work at Oracle and their salaries are fairly competitive. I am no Oracle fanboy but this just seems like a bunch of jobless federal employees dragging their feet around.

bobthepanda 8y ago
This is only great advice if Oracle is the only one giving lower pay to minority or female employees. Google is subject to a similar probe, and Palantir had to settle with the government. And these are the cases that we know about publicly. Given that Apple, Google, Intel, and Adobe were conspiring to limit labor competition, constant vigilance of tech companies' labor practices are totally warranted.
- dhh2106 8y ago
  How were they conspiring to limit labor competition? Completely agree constant vigilance is important. It also shouldn't matter that many employees can switch jobs. All employees cannot (personal circumstances, visas, etc). It also doesn't waive the company of its responsibility for fair pay.
  - dinedal 8y ago
    I believe the parent post is referring to https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/High-Tech_Employee_Antitrust_Litigation https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/High-Tech_Employee_Antitrust_L...
  - locopati 8y ago
    http://fortune.com/2015/09/03/koh-anti-poach-order/ http://fortune.com/2015/09/03/koh-anti-poach-order/
  - njarboe 8y ago
    This lawsuit[1] should be better well known in tech circles. I think it is one of the reasons salaries have been going sky-high at to top tech companies over the last five years. It is really too bad the class action lawyers settled for a relatively small amount and did not go to trial for a larger settlement and to expose more info on what they did. [1]https://sanfrancisco.cbslocal.com/2014/04/24/google-apple-intel-adobe-settle-high-tech-workers-lawsuit/ https://sanfrancisco.cbslocal.com/2014/04/24/google-apple-in...
- epicureanideal 8y ago
  I'm genuinely interested to see the research that shows that women and minorities (other than those clearly disadvantaged by visa status) are being underpaid for the same qualifications and same work. I've worked at many companies, including as a hiring manager, and I have not observed anyone ever trying to intentionally underpay female or minority candidates. If anything, the female or minority candidates were sought after by multiple companies to improve their diversity statistics, so had a better bargaining position and eventual salary outcome than an equivalently qualified male non-minority candidate. On the other hand, I have heard with my own ears in company meetings (not my current employer) that we already employ "enough" non-minority males, and should prefer to hire minorities and women over others. I've personally experienced and also heard from others that they've been pressured to give female and minority candidates the benefit of the doubt when they would've failed interviews had they been someone else. As an alternative explanation for any observed difference in pay... Anecdotally, there are lots of non-minority male nerds who spend ridiculous amounts of time reading tech books and working on work related side projects, to the point that they have no social lives and may never have a family. Even if we compare a sample of male and female candidates with the education and years of experience, a few outlier workaholic geeks (especially given power-law compensation) could throw off the averages and make it seem that women are discriminated against. I'd also like to see research that controls for things like... what school did the individuals study at, not just their degree? A CSU grad will probably make less than a UC grad. What classes did they take? (To control for people who take minimums vs take intense courses.) How many hours per week do they devote to their career outside of work on average? How many hours do they work on average? And so on. If these are difficult variables to control for, that makes my point... we can't say it's a result of discrimination unless we've controlled for all the actual variables. To zoom out for a minute... I'm very much interested in everyone getting equal opportunity and equal pay for equal work. But it does NOBODY any favors to try to make political points with sloppy or intentionally misleading research, because all it does is alienate potential allies and make them think the debate is not honest.
  - torpidor 8y ago
    I think you don’t understand the point of view of diversity advocates. (I don’t mean this negatively, it’s often difficult to understand people who have very different perspectives) > I have not observed anyone ever trying to intentionally underpay female or minority candidates Most bad things that happen in our world are not intentional. Car accidents kill millions each year. One idea you may want to consider is that salaries are often set based on what someone earned previously. Therefore one bad actor can roll through 10 or more later positions without anyone acting intentionally. > there are lots of non-minority male nerds who spend ridiculous amounts of time... to the point that they have no social lives and may never have a family An alternative way to parse these same facts is that white men are more likely to be in an economic condition where it is possible to spend time on non-income-generating activities. For that matter I think at least some men believe a social or family life is not something they could have achieved. In any case I think it is harder to disentangle choices from cultural forces than you think. > I’d also like to see research that controls for things like... how many hours do they work on average? I’d like to see research that explains why working more hours is good for society. Buried in your questions are assumptions like “equal pay is fine as long as it doesn’t change the system too much” but the diversifist assumption is “lack of equal pay is a code smell for underlying problems in the system.” > we can’t say it’s a result of discrimination unless we’ve controlled for all the actual variables I think here you are projecting your values onto another position. (Intentional) discrimination is the problem that would annoy you, and so therefore diversity advocates should do research to establish a problem you would care about. From the perspective of incorporating you as a political constituency I don’t think you’re wrong. However, the actual pro-diversity position is something like “I’m annoyed that our society values traits common to X group and not traits common to Y or Z.” As a person in X group this argument is statistically unlikely to impress you, but it is harder to tease out if this is because you intentionally dislike Y (“intentional discrimination”), if there is something important we will lose if we start to prefer more Y traits (perhaps a traditional conservative type position) or if it is just hard to envision a society different than the actual one we live in.
- pc86 8y ago
  > And these are the cases that we know about publicly. Well, we know about all the cases publicly because case records are public.
  - richardknop 8y ago
    All the cases that made it to court. Very likely this is still going on, just better concealed.
ProAm 8y ago
What division of Oracle do your friends work in? Oracle is massive and salary range is diverse through each division/sector.
matt4077 8y ago
This is the oldest argument against all employment anti-discrimination efforts, namely „The free market will take care of it” It’s quite obvious that this idea was never true: companies were quite willing to forgo some money to keep their workforce male & white, to not approve mortgages for minorities trying to move to the “wrong” part of town (redlining), etc. In any case, your suggestion, even if workable, would seem to be eminently discriminatory: changing jobs, and everything it can entail such as moving a whole family, is in itself a harm nobody should suffer just for their gender/skin color/etc. In practical matters, people are often not aware of discrimination they suffer until long after, because compensation information is regarded as secret, and because it requires aggregation of many data points to show systemic biases.
- zozbot123 8y ago
  The free market can only take care of persisting discrimination by adjusting compensating differentials, so as to provide an incentive for hiring those who are being discriminated against. So the fact that females and minorities are both said to be discriminated in hiring and underpaid at some places is per se proof that the free market is in fact working to address discrimination in hiring. Sure, we'd like to see equal pay for equal work too, but you gotta start somewhere...
  - jessaustin 8y ago
    This is reasonable, but now you've given up the game entirely. Oracle and similar firms receive massive benefits from society. First, they are allowed to exist in the first place, which is not obviously a just decision. Also, so many aspects of society are tweaked to make it easier for gigantic inefficient firms to profit consistently. Because of this, Oracle and firms like it owe us something more than merely responding to market conditions. At the very least, not discriminating against employees in illegal ways is part of what they owe.
    - Consultant32452 8y ago
      You guys seem really interested in this topic, so I thought I'd recommend the book The Economics of Discrimination by Becker. A lot of seemingly intuitive things about wage discrimination fall apart upon closer inspection. It's a really complex problem that in some cases has counter intuitively gotten worse since the Jim Crow days.
TheOperator 8y ago
Except that Oracle has colluded with other large companies in the past to fix wages. Enforced through the means of blacklisting employees who leave one large tech company to apply for jobs at another. Also enforced via non-complete clauses. While people working at Oracle may make more than the average person their wages are still depressed through big business cartels presenting a united front and thus a monospony. There is a market failure and people are responding by suing Oracle.
airstrike 8y ago
> If someone feels underpaid, they can just jump ship. Except if you're an immigrant, you can't just jump ship. But you have friends who work at Oracle, so you must have a very informed view. Great insight.

bobthepanda 8y ago

This is only great advice if Oracle is the only one giving lower pay to minority or female employees. Google is subject to a similar probe, and Palantir had to settle with the government. And these are the cases that we know about publicly. Given that Apple, Google, Intel, and Adobe were conspiring to limit labor competition, constant vigilance of tech companies' labor practices are totally warranted.

dhh2106 8y ago
How were they conspiring to limit labor competition? Completely agree constant vigilance is important. It also shouldn't matter that many employees can switch jobs. All employees cannot (personal circumstances, visas, etc). It also doesn't waive the company of its responsibility for fair pay.
- dinedal 8y ago
  I believe the parent post is referring to https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/High-Tech_Employee_Antitrust_Litigation https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/High-Tech_Employee_Antitrust_L...
- locopati 8y ago
  http://fortune.com/2015/09/03/koh-anti-poach-order/ http://fortune.com/2015/09/03/koh-anti-poach-order/
- njarboe 8y ago
  This lawsuit[1] should be better well known in tech circles. I think it is one of the reasons salaries have been going sky-high at to top tech companies over the last five years. It is really too bad the class action lawyers settled for a relatively small amount and did not go to trial for a larger settlement and to expose more info on what they did. [1]https://sanfrancisco.cbslocal.com/2014/04/24/google-apple-intel-adobe-settle-high-tech-workers-lawsuit/ https://sanfrancisco.cbslocal.com/2014/04/24/google-apple-in...
epicureanideal 8y ago
I'm genuinely interested to see the research that shows that women and minorities (other than those clearly disadvantaged by visa status) are being underpaid for the same qualifications and same work. I've worked at many companies, including as a hiring manager, and I have not observed anyone ever trying to intentionally underpay female or minority candidates. If anything, the female or minority candidates were sought after by multiple companies to improve their diversity statistics, so had a better bargaining position and eventual salary outcome than an equivalently qualified male non-minority candidate. On the other hand, I have heard with my own ears in company meetings (not my current employer) that we already employ "enough" non-minority males, and should prefer to hire minorities and women over others. I've personally experienced and also heard from others that they've been pressured to give female and minority candidates the benefit of the doubt when they would've failed interviews had they been someone else. As an alternative explanation for any observed difference in pay... Anecdotally, there are lots of non-minority male nerds who spend ridiculous amounts of time reading tech books and working on work related side projects, to the point that they have no social lives and may never have a family. Even if we compare a sample of male and female candidates with the education and years of experience, a few outlier workaholic geeks (especially given power-law compensation) could throw off the averages and make it seem that women are discriminated against. I'd also like to see research that controls for things like... what school did the individuals study at, not just their degree? A CSU grad will probably make less than a UC grad. What classes did they take? (To control for people who take minimums vs take intense courses.) How many hours per week do they devote to their career outside of work on average? How many hours do they work on average? And so on. If these are difficult variables to control for, that makes my point... we can't say it's a result of discrimination unless we've controlled for all the actual variables. To zoom out for a minute... I'm very much interested in everyone getting equal opportunity and equal pay for equal work. But it does NOBODY any favors to try to make political points with sloppy or intentionally misleading research, because all it does is alienate potential allies and make them think the debate is not honest.
- torpidor 8y ago
  I think you don’t understand the point of view of diversity advocates. (I don’t mean this negatively, it’s often difficult to understand people who have very different perspectives) > I have not observed anyone ever trying to intentionally underpay female or minority candidates Most bad things that happen in our world are not intentional. Car accidents kill millions each year. One idea you may want to consider is that salaries are often set based on what someone earned previously. Therefore one bad actor can roll through 10 or more later positions without anyone acting intentionally. > there are lots of non-minority male nerds who spend ridiculous amounts of time... to the point that they have no social lives and may never have a family An alternative way to parse these same facts is that white men are more likely to be in an economic condition where it is possible to spend time on non-income-generating activities. For that matter I think at least some men believe a social or family life is not something they could have achieved. In any case I think it is harder to disentangle choices from cultural forces than you think. > I’d also like to see research that controls for things like... how many hours do they work on average? I’d like to see research that explains why working more hours is good for society. Buried in your questions are assumptions like “equal pay is fine as long as it doesn’t change the system too much” but the diversifist assumption is “lack of equal pay is a code smell for underlying problems in the system.” > we can’t say it’s a result of discrimination unless we’ve controlled for all the actual variables I think here you are projecting your values onto another position. (Intentional) discrimination is the problem that would annoy you, and so therefore diversity advocates should do research to establish a problem you would care about. From the perspective of incorporating you as a political constituency I don’t think you’re wrong. However, the actual pro-diversity position is something like “I’m annoyed that our society values traits common to X group and not traits common to Y or Z.” As a person in X group this argument is statistically unlikely to impress you, but it is harder to tease out if this is because you intentionally dislike Y (“intentional discrimination”), if there is something important we will lose if we start to prefer more Y traits (perhaps a traditional conservative type position) or if it is just hard to envision a society different than the actual one we live in.
pc86 8y ago
> And these are the cases that we know about publicly. Well, we know about all the cases publicly because case records are public.
- richardknop 8y ago
  All the cases that made it to court. Very likely this is still going on, just better concealed.

ProAm 8y ago

What division of Oracle do your friends work in? Oracle is massive and salary range is diverse through each division/sector.

matt4077 8y ago

This is the oldest argument against all employment anti-discrimination efforts, namely „The free market will take care of it” It’s quite obvious that this idea was never true: companies were quite willing to forgo some money to keep their workforce male & white, to not approve mortgages for minorities trying to move to the “wrong” part of town (redlining), etc. In any case, your suggestion, even if workable, would seem to be eminently discriminatory: changing jobs, and everything it can entail such as moving a whole family, is in itself a harm nobody should suffer just for their gender/skin color/etc. In practical matters, people are often not aware of discrimination they suffer until long after, because compensation information is regarded as secret, and because it requires aggregation of many data points to show systemic biases.

zozbot123 8y ago
The free market can only take care of persisting discrimination by adjusting compensating differentials, so as to provide an incentive for hiring those who are being discriminated against. So the fact that females and minorities are both said to be discriminated in hiring and underpaid at some places is per se proof that the free market is in fact working to address discrimination in hiring. Sure, we'd like to see equal pay for equal work too, but you gotta start somewhere...
- jessaustin 8y ago
  This is reasonable, but now you've given up the game entirely. Oracle and similar firms receive massive benefits from society. First, they are allowed to exist in the first place, which is not obviously a just decision. Also, so many aspects of society are tweaked to make it easier for gigantic inefficient firms to profit consistently. Because of this, Oracle and firms like it owe us something more than merely responding to market conditions. At the very least, not discriminating against employees in illegal ways is part of what they owe.
  - Consultant32452 8y ago
    You guys seem really interested in this topic, so I thought I'd recommend the book The Economics of Discrimination by Becker. A lot of seemingly intuitive things about wage discrimination fall apart upon closer inspection. It's a really complex problem that in some cases has counter intuitively gotten worse since the Jim Crow days.

TheOperator 8y ago

Except that Oracle has colluded with other large companies in the past to fix wages. Enforced through the means of blacklisting employees who leave one large tech company to apply for jobs at another. Also enforced via non-complete clauses. While people working at Oracle may make more than the average person their wages are still depressed through big business cartels presenting a united front and thus a monospony. There is a market failure and people are responding by suing Oracle.

airstrike 8y ago

> If someone feels underpaid, they can just jump ship. Except if you're an immigrant, you can't just jump ship. But you have friends who work at Oracle, so you must have a very informed view. Great insight.