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Exactly. They can not break out the "my codes compiling" argument. Lost morale over a 2 year old laptop?? Wow, they should work in education. Try a 10 year old

Exactly. They can not break out the "my codes compiling" argument. Lost morale over a 2 year old laptop?? Wow, they should work in education. Try a 10 year old laptop and no hope of every buying a new "high end" machine. Try a shiny new $500 dell. I think some new programmers are out of touch a bit on hardware...

zulln 8y ago
> Wow, they should work in education. Try a 10 year old laptop and no hope of every buying a new "high end" machine. That it is worse in another field is not a very good argument?
- scarface74 8y ago
  Yes because developers who are whining about having to use a two year old laptop because their company is trying to save money seems more like a bunch of entitled brats.
  - Tehchops 8y ago
    >seems more like a bunch of entitled brats. I'd say anyone that drops the money on a 4 year CS education of any rigor, survives it, survives and succeeds at the fairly rigorous interview cycles required to get a job in SWE these days... is absolutely entitled to requesting top of the line hardware to perform their duties. I'd say your argument makes it "seem" like it's coming from envious, curmudgeonly luddites. If individuals of other vocations feel that these developers are "entitled brats", perhaps they should switch careers? I can't imagine a teacher went in to education seriously expecting to get provisioned the latest rMBP as a perk? Are we assuming all jobs are equally dependent on high-end hardware to provide the best RoI for time spent?
    - scarface74 8y ago
      Because you think CS is the hardest, most rigorous major?
      - Tehchops 8y ago
        Where did I say or even imply that? I simply said it was hard and rigorous. Not the most.
        lightedman 8y ago
        I ended up testing out within 6 months and getting my degree, with my brain damage on top of it. Rigorous is too strong of a word to describe the shoddy state of CS education today. It was much, MUCH harder in the earlier days when everything was ASM and C.
    - cr0sh 8y ago
      Why do you assume all employed SWEs have 4 year CS degrees? Or any degree at all?
      - Tehchops 8y ago
        That's fair. Then they've managed to educate themselves, not exactly a non-trivial feat either.
        scarface74 8y ago
        Teaching yourself to program is not rocket science either. I was writing 65C02 and x86 assembly on 6th grade in the 80s. I got a C.S. degree because that’s what I was suppose to do.
  - eanzenberg 8y ago
    If you're bringing in 3x your cost (as you should as an employee), the cost of a laptop is very nil for the company. Their nickel and diming you is worse for morale and retention.
    - scarface74 8y ago
      Anyone who will quit a job for something so minute as having a two year old laptop is someone that is probably so immature that they couldn’t handle the normal rigors that come from being a professional.
      - eanzenberg 8y ago
        You may think so. When you see certain coworkers get new machines every 2 years but you don't, for example, it builds a power structure when one wasn't before. If you feel less valued as a result, I don't think it means you can't handle the "normal rigors" of being a professional. It means, if you can find somewhere else where you feel more valued, then more power to you.
        scarface74 8y ago
        Again if you can’t handle the “power structure” of not getting a laptop every two years, you will never be able to handle navigating life in corporate America.
      - throwaway-hn123 8y ago
        Mate, you're coming across like a cunt. Stop it.
    - around_here 8y ago
      If you're bringing in 3x your cost, you're getting ripped off and need to start raking those numbers back in.
      - zulln 8y ago
        What would you say is a good ratio then?
  - TomVDB 8y ago
    In the end, what matters is that you keep your employees happy. Whether or not they are entitle brats (they are...) is irrelevant if you need those employees.
- TeMPOraL 8y ago
  It's not "another field", it's literally almost every field other than computing, as outside tech people either don't have money for top hardware, or don't have interest in buying it. In so far as it makes developer more empathetic towards users, it's a good point to make.
eanzenberg 8y ago
If you were paid at your job the same as in tech, and you know the direct value you add then you'll understand the cost of the tools you prefer is a literal drop in the bucket and not worth serious discussion.
- scarface74 8y ago
  Wow seeing that I’ve been “in tech” developing professionally for over 20 years and a hobbyist programmer in assembly since 12, I think I’ve earned my geek cred...
michaelmrose 8y ago
It's actually you that is out of touch. I could reiterate the arguments already well expressed but perhaps I should just suggest you read the entire rest of the thread. A teacher spends presumably most hours actually interacting with students and use the computer for preparation and paperwork something your 10 year old dell is probably well suited for during the minority of the time they spend on it. Your dev spends most of their time on their machine and even if they don't have to build software in a compiled language may still be running a heavy development environment, several browsers to test the result, virtual machines, etc etc etc. To drive the point home lets consider the cost of a 5% decrease in productivity due to using an inferior machine. If a teacher is contracted to work 185 days or 37 work weeks in a year and earns 60k the teacher earns $32 at 50 hours. If the teacher spends 10 hours per week on the computer the cost is no more than $32 * 37 * 10 * 0.05 = $592 If your software developer is earning 100k x 50 weeks and spends 50 hours per week almost all of which is spent using the computer then the cost is $40 per hour x 40 hours on the computer x 50 weeks x 0.05 = $4000 This doesn't account for actual costs incurred by having to hire more developers because management is too incompetent to retain them buy buying them nice tools.
- keithpeter 8y ago
  Classrooms often use interactive whiteboards driven by PCs that can be quite slow to log in to the teacher's active directory profile as this involves pulling data over a network of variable speed. There can also be issues with software upgrades deciding to start at random times. The PC will need to be logged off and logged on 8 times a day... Teachers don't talk to themselves in classrooms so time loss can affect a small percentage of up to 180 student-hours per day or 900 student-hours per teaching week per teacher. A typical '8 form entry' secondary school in UK will have around 100 teachers plus admin / head of subject / 'leadership'. School year is around 38 weeks. I sometimes think something like ChromeOS but that can run IW software and just stay booted would be better. An appliance.
  - michaelmrose 8y ago
    The argument you are constructing is that we should invest more money in classroom computers not less in developers.

zulln 8y ago

> Wow, they should work in education. Try a 10 year old laptop and no hope of every buying a new "high end" machine. That it is worse in another field is not a very good argument?

scarface74 8y ago
Yes because developers who are whining about having to use a two year old laptop because their company is trying to save money seems more like a bunch of entitled brats.
- Tehchops 8y ago
  >seems more like a bunch of entitled brats. I'd say anyone that drops the money on a 4 year CS education of any rigor, survives it, survives and succeeds at the fairly rigorous interview cycles required to get a job in SWE these days... is absolutely entitled to requesting top of the line hardware to perform their duties. I'd say your argument makes it "seem" like it's coming from envious, curmudgeonly luddites. If individuals of other vocations feel that these developers are "entitled brats", perhaps they should switch careers? I can't imagine a teacher went in to education seriously expecting to get provisioned the latest rMBP as a perk? Are we assuming all jobs are equally dependent on high-end hardware to provide the best RoI for time spent?
  - scarface74 8y ago
    Because you think CS is the hardest, most rigorous major?
    - Tehchops 8y ago
      Where did I say or even imply that? I simply said it was hard and rigorous. Not the most.
      - lightedman 8y ago
        I ended up testing out within 6 months and getting my degree, with my brain damage on top of it. Rigorous is too strong of a word to describe the shoddy state of CS education today. It was much, MUCH harder in the earlier days when everything was ASM and C.
  - cr0sh 8y ago
    Why do you assume all employed SWEs have 4 year CS degrees? Or any degree at all?
    - Tehchops 8y ago
      That's fair. Then they've managed to educate themselves, not exactly a non-trivial feat either.
      - scarface74 8y ago
        Teaching yourself to program is not rocket science either. I was writing 65C02 and x86 assembly on 6th grade in the 80s. I got a C.S. degree because that’s what I was suppose to do.
- eanzenberg 8y ago
  If you're bringing in 3x your cost (as you should as an employee), the cost of a laptop is very nil for the company. Their nickel and diming you is worse for morale and retention.
  - scarface74 8y ago
    Anyone who will quit a job for something so minute as having a two year old laptop is someone that is probably so immature that they couldn’t handle the normal rigors that come from being a professional.
    - eanzenberg 8y ago
      You may think so. When you see certain coworkers get new machines every 2 years but you don't, for example, it builds a power structure when one wasn't before. If you feel less valued as a result, I don't think it means you can't handle the "normal rigors" of being a professional. It means, if you can find somewhere else where you feel more valued, then more power to you.
      - scarface74 8y ago
        Again if you can’t handle the “power structure” of not getting a laptop every two years, you will never be able to handle navigating life in corporate America.
    - throwaway-hn123 8y ago
      Mate, you're coming across like a cunt. Stop it.
  - around_here 8y ago
    If you're bringing in 3x your cost, you're getting ripped off and need to start raking those numbers back in.
    - zulln 8y ago
      What would you say is a good ratio then?
- TomVDB 8y ago
  In the end, what matters is that you keep your employees happy. Whether or not they are entitle brats (they are...) is irrelevant if you need those employees.
TeMPOraL 8y ago
It's not "another field", it's literally almost every field other than computing, as outside tech people either don't have money for top hardware, or don't have interest in buying it. In so far as it makes developer more empathetic towards users, it's a good point to make.

eanzenberg 8y ago

If you were paid at your job the same as in tech, and you know the direct value you add then you'll understand the cost of the tools you prefer is a literal drop in the bucket and not worth serious discussion.

scarface74 8y ago
Wow seeing that I’ve been “in tech” developing professionally for over 20 years and a hobbyist programmer in assembly since 12, I think I’ve earned my geek cred...

michaelmrose 8y ago

It's actually you that is out of touch. I could reiterate the arguments already well expressed but perhaps I should just suggest you read the entire rest of the thread. A teacher spends presumably most hours actually interacting with students and use the computer for preparation and paperwork something your 10 year old dell is probably well suited for during the minority of the time they spend on it. Your dev spends most of their time on their machine and even if they don't have to build software in a compiled language may still be running a heavy development environment, several browsers to test the result, virtual machines, etc etc etc. To drive the point home lets consider the cost of a 5% decrease in productivity due to using an inferior machine. If a teacher is contracted to work 185 days or 37 work weeks in a year and earns 60k the teacher earns $32 at 50 hours. If the teacher spends 10 hours per week on the computer the cost is no more than $32 * 37 * 10 * 0.05 = $592 If your software developer is earning 100k x 50 weeks and spends 50 hours per week almost all of which is spent using the computer then the cost is $40 per hour x 40 hours on the computer x 50 weeks x 0.05 = $4000 This doesn't account for actual costs incurred by having to hire more developers because management is too incompetent to retain them buy buying them nice tools.

keithpeter 8y ago
Classrooms often use interactive whiteboards driven by PCs that can be quite slow to log in to the teacher's active directory profile as this involves pulling data over a network of variable speed. There can also be issues with software upgrades deciding to start at random times. The PC will need to be logged off and logged on 8 times a day... Teachers don't talk to themselves in classrooms so time loss can affect a small percentage of up to 180 student-hours per day or 900 student-hours per teaching week per teacher. A typical '8 form entry' secondary school in UK will have around 100 teachers plus admin / head of subject / 'leadership'. School year is around 38 weeks. I sometimes think something like ChromeOS but that can run IW software and just stay booted would be better. An appliance.
- michaelmrose 8y ago
  The argument you are constructing is that we should invest more money in classroom computers not less in developers.