4 ms·

Here's the problem, though: what do you do about individuals with a low IQ? Not even crazy low, but low enough that STEM fields are out of their grasp? There's

by cal5k 8y ago

Here's the problem, though: what do you do about individuals with a low IQ? Not even crazy low, but low enough that STEM fields are out of their grasp? There's little evidence that IQ can be substantially increased through education... and I think those of us who pursued that path tend to incorrectly assume it's open to anyone if they just had a better school.

umvi 8y ago
I doubt low IQ is a significant problem in public education. I'd wager the #1 problem in our schools is bad parents. Schools are now expected not only to teach, but to parent students as well. A kid going to a crappy school who has good parents is still going to thrive. They will be motivated to complete homework, can receive help, etc. A kid going to a crappy school with crappy parents is going to crash and burn. Heck, a kid going to a good school with crappy parents is still probably to crash and burn. There may be more of an effort to help from school administration, but generally... crappy parents don't care if their kids don't do the homework, won't (or can't) help their kids when they get stuck, and blame the school system (or teacher) for their child's failure.
- rglover 8y ago
  Bingo and we should anticipate this. Education programs (and the support systems around them) should be designed as though parents are _not_ going to participate. Simultaneously, though, there should be educational programs for how to parent. It's not "obvious" to everyone. The majority are in the "we had sex cause' it felt good and now we have a rugrat" bracket.
- hoaw 8y ago
  Which is why every aspiring egalitarian society work hard to take the parents out of the equation. Day care in Sweden cost like €100, and you get that in cash benefit for having a kid, which means it is essentially free. Successful societies aren't in effect more sophisticated, they just make it easy for themselves from the beginning.
rglover 8y ago
1.) Understand the cohort. Group kids based on cognitive abilities and reevaluate on an interval (once per year, for example). 2.) Match the level of ability to the task. Practical work doesn't have to just be STEM. For example, "make sure the meeting room is clean, all attendees have a glass of water, and the lights are turned on." Simple checklist-style work that empowers the individual while being aligned with their abilities. It's important: keep reiterating to students that no one is "better" than anyone based on their jobs and that each is integral to the task at hand. It'd do wonders if we quit belittling people just because they lack a certain level of intelligence.
- fuzz4lyfe 8y ago
  The problem is how much are you willing to pay for the clean meeting room service? With transportation time and cost I don't see a way to scale that in a manner that pays a decent wage.
  - cal5k 8y ago
    Bingo. Cognitive skills are compensated at a much higher rate.
  - rglover 8y ago
    That's irrelevant. The point isn't the cleaning service, it's teaching kids that they can _do_ something. The next step up from that is "hey you did that well, how about trying to paint the shuttle." Scaled encouragement over time. Contrast that with "sit down, shut up, and look forward" and yeah, you're going to have a lot of idiots running around that aren't worth much economically.
    - fuzz4lyfe 8y ago
      I misunderstood and it turns out I agree. Something like tech school or apprenticeship is how that type of training happened historically. Mike Rowe has a foundation pushing a similar idea that may be along the lines of what you are talking about. https://www.mikeroweworks.org/about/#sweat-pledge https://www.mikeroweworks.org/about/#sweat-pledge

by cal5k 8y ago

umvi 8y ago

I doubt low IQ is a significant problem in public education. I'd wager the #1 problem in our schools is bad parents. Schools are now expected not only to teach, but to parent students as well. A kid going to a crappy school who has good parents is still going to thrive. They will be motivated to complete homework, can receive help, etc. A kid going to a crappy school with crappy parents is going to crash and burn. Heck, a kid going to a good school with crappy parents is still probably to crash and burn. There may be more of an effort to help from school administration, but generally... crappy parents don't care if their kids don't do the homework, won't (or can't) help their kids when they get stuck, and blame the school system (or teacher) for their child's failure.

rglover 8y ago
Bingo and we should anticipate this. Education programs (and the support systems around them) should be designed as though parents are _not_ going to participate. Simultaneously, though, there should be educational programs for how to parent. It's not "obvious" to everyone. The majority are in the "we had sex cause' it felt good and now we have a rugrat" bracket.
hoaw 8y ago
Which is why every aspiring egalitarian society work hard to take the parents out of the equation. Day care in Sweden cost like €100, and you get that in cash benefit for having a kid, which means it is essentially free. Successful societies aren't in effect more sophisticated, they just make it easy for themselves from the beginning.

rglover 8y ago

1.) Understand the cohort. Group kids based on cognitive abilities and reevaluate on an interval (once per year, for example). 2.) Match the level of ability to the task. Practical work doesn't have to just be STEM. For example, "make sure the meeting room is clean, all attendees have a glass of water, and the lights are turned on." Simple checklist-style work that empowers the individual while being aligned with their abilities. It's important: keep reiterating to students that no one is "better" than anyone based on their jobs and that each is integral to the task at hand. It'd do wonders if we quit belittling people just because they lack a certain level of intelligence.

fuzz4lyfe 8y ago
The problem is how much are you willing to pay for the clean meeting room service? With transportation time and cost I don't see a way to scale that in a manner that pays a decent wage.
- cal5k 8y ago
  Bingo. Cognitive skills are compensated at a much higher rate.
- rglover 8y ago
  That's irrelevant. The point isn't the cleaning service, it's teaching kids that they can _do_ something. The next step up from that is "hey you did that well, how about trying to paint the shuttle." Scaled encouragement over time. Contrast that with "sit down, shut up, and look forward" and yeah, you're going to have a lot of idiots running around that aren't worth much economically.
  - fuzz4lyfe 8y ago
    I misunderstood and it turns out I agree. Something like tech school or apprenticeship is how that type of training happened historically. Mike Rowe has a foundation pushing a similar idea that may be along the lines of what you are talking about. https://www.mikeroweworks.org/about/#sweat-pledge https://www.mikeroweworks.org/about/#sweat-pledge