4 ms·

I agree with the author but how exactly do we fund a basic income type system for the masses without raising taxes on someone or some entity?

conanbatt 8y ago
Carving out the government. The US government today spends 23k per person/year. https://www.usgovernmentspending.com/per_capita https://www.usgovernmentspending.com/per_capita
- notahacker 8y ago
  That figure mostly shows how little wiggle room to create a UBI exists. I have a feeling that eliminating all funding for education and healthcare to create a new $12k pa handout for people not currently entitled to welfare or social security might not be a universally popular move...
  - conanbatt 8y ago
    I think it shows plenty of wiggle room. You think all the dollars that go to health spending are well spent? 5k year per capita means that the government spends 400U$S per person for all the health expenditures it has, on top of the 400--700~ a month american spend for PPO plans for themselves without getting government health assistance. Just pensions and healthcare are almost half the expenditures, 2 things absolutely in the realm of inefficiency.
    - notahacker 8y ago
      I don't think the US healthcare budget can't be improved. I just don't think the way to improve it is to eliminate it altogether to pay for a fraction of the US population to receive $12k handouts instead. And the pensions budget is mostly spent on disbursing cash to people with the right social security number - precisely the thing you're advocating doing more of....
- sokoloff 8y ago
  I think you do some of that and also raise taxes across the board. MFJ making $75K/yr AGI might get $12K in UBI and an increase of $6K in their taxes. MFJ making $45K might get the full $12K and no tax increase. I don’t know what the right levels are, but it can’t/shouldn’t be “everyone gets an extra $12K of spending money thanks exclusively to the ‘tippy top’ earners.”
ozzyman700 8y ago
Why would raising taxes be a bad thing? The highest US tax bracket in 2019 is 37% for income over $500,000. I don't see why a higher tax bracket, along the lines of WWI or WWII would be untenable. Could you elucidate why you are so averse to raising taxes? I find it harder to accept that every person making income is subject to a 10% fed. income tax, in a country where the basics of survival are not even provided. Why shouldn't income over a million a year be taxed at a much higher rate?
- smileysteve 8y ago
  > The highest US tax bracket in 2019 is 37% for income over $500,00 + 13% state income tax = 50% (california) Add in 15% medicare and social security on earned income. Then add in in 10% sales taxes.
- conanbatt 8y ago
  I can tell you why I'm averse to raising taxes. Because the utlitity of government expenditures is really low: for each successful program it has failed programs that last decades and sometimes even have negative returns, let alone justify what private investment would have gotten. Because the person that advocates the most for the tax, the politician, gets to spend it, and has nothing to lose by doing so and plenty to win. Because the mechanism itself allows to get money from anything and put it into anything, and once in place its exceedingly difficult to take out, even if it has short term positive results. Because even today, the government as it is wastes money on a plethora of projects but instead of cleaning itself up, it demands more resources. Because the consolidated expenditures of the entire government is 23k/year/capita which means that if you just slashed government in half, you could give a thousand dollars to each american every month without raising a single tax.
  - zip1234 8y ago
    The top 3 richest counties in America are actually surrounding Washington D.C. Money is extracted from everywhere else in the country via taxes and paid to people in that area.
zozbot123 8y ago
Basic income is not "for the masses", it's mostly for the destitute (although even poor people with more earned-income would be getting some BI). "The masses" would largely be funding it via the taxes that now go to other social assistance programs.

conanbatt 8y ago

Carving out the government. The US government today spends 23k per person/year. https://www.usgovernmentspending.com/per_capita https://www.usgovernmentspending.com/per_capita

notahacker 8y ago
That figure mostly shows how little wiggle room to create a UBI exists. I have a feeling that eliminating all funding for education and healthcare to create a new $12k pa handout for people not currently entitled to welfare or social security might not be a universally popular move...
- conanbatt 8y ago
  I think it shows plenty of wiggle room. You think all the dollars that go to health spending are well spent? 5k year per capita means that the government spends 400U$S per person for all the health expenditures it has, on top of the 400--700~ a month american spend for PPO plans for themselves without getting government health assistance. Just pensions and healthcare are almost half the expenditures, 2 things absolutely in the realm of inefficiency.
  - notahacker 8y ago
    I don't think the US healthcare budget can't be improved. I just don't think the way to improve it is to eliminate it altogether to pay for a fraction of the US population to receive $12k handouts instead. And the pensions budget is mostly spent on disbursing cash to people with the right social security number - precisely the thing you're advocating doing more of....
sokoloff 8y ago
I think you do some of that and also raise taxes across the board. MFJ making $75K/yr AGI might get $12K in UBI and an increase of $6K in their taxes. MFJ making $45K might get the full $12K and no tax increase. I don’t know what the right levels are, but it can’t/shouldn’t be “everyone gets an extra $12K of spending money thanks exclusively to the ‘tippy top’ earners.”

ozzyman700 8y ago

Why would raising taxes be a bad thing? The highest US tax bracket in 2019 is 37% for income over $500,000. I don't see why a higher tax bracket, along the lines of WWI or WWII would be untenable. Could you elucidate why you are so averse to raising taxes? I find it harder to accept that every person making income is subject to a 10% fed. income tax, in a country where the basics of survival are not even provided. Why shouldn't income over a million a year be taxed at a much higher rate?

smileysteve 8y ago
> The highest US tax bracket in 2019 is 37% for income over $500,00 + 13% state income tax = 50% (california) Add in 15% medicare and social security on earned income. Then add in in 10% sales taxes.
conanbatt 8y ago
I can tell you why I'm averse to raising taxes. Because the utlitity of government expenditures is really low: for each successful program it has failed programs that last decades and sometimes even have negative returns, let alone justify what private investment would have gotten. Because the person that advocates the most for the tax, the politician, gets to spend it, and has nothing to lose by doing so and plenty to win. Because the mechanism itself allows to get money from anything and put it into anything, and once in place its exceedingly difficult to take out, even if it has short term positive results. Because even today, the government as it is wastes money on a plethora of projects but instead of cleaning itself up, it demands more resources. Because the consolidated expenditures of the entire government is 23k/year/capita which means that if you just slashed government in half, you could give a thousand dollars to each american every month without raising a single tax.
- zip1234 8y ago
  The top 3 richest counties in America are actually surrounding Washington D.C. Money is extracted from everywhere else in the country via taxes and paid to people in that area.

zozbot123 8y ago

Basic income is not "for the masses", it's mostly for the destitute (although even poor people with more earned-income would be getting some BI). "The masses" would largely be funding it via the taxes that now go to other social assistance programs.