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This is a feature not a bug of bitcoin. As the saying goes in the community, "Not your keys, not your coins", you're not supposed to store coins on an exchange

by r32a_ 8y ago

This is a feature not a bug of bitcoin. As the saying goes in the community, "Not your keys, not your coins", you're not supposed to store coins on an exchange. But nearly everyone does. Everyone is encouraged to hold their own keys and be responsible for their coins. As UX and wallets improve more and more people are holding their own coins. The people that store coins on exchanges must understand the risk of holding coins on exchanges. It's a reality of crypto. It's true, current iterations of DEX are not really DEX, they are all centralized companies, these things take time to build, it's not a simple photo-sharing app. If it turns out that is impossible to build a true DEX then you can always do shapeshift style atomic swaps and those are here today! Bitcoin hacks and scams are not related to Bitcoin. There are even more hacks and scams that happen in the regular finance industry. From SWIFT being hacked to countless and countless of scams by small and big companies. Are you seriously saying that Bitcoin only suffers from scams?? The difference between a Bitcoin bank failing and regular bank failing is that, if Bitcoin bank fails, for people who have stored their coins safely won't be affected. Sure the price will fluctuate because of the news but I still have my coins. When a regular bank fails the entire country has to pay the price and money is printed and currency is debased. Everyone has to pay for the mistake of a few.

nosuchthing 8y ago
No customer protection and irreversible transactions = "This is a feature not a bug of bitcoin." Shapeshift is not an atomic swap, it's an exchange and they charge a large fee on top of the current spot price determined by other major exchanges. Bitcoin hacks are related to Bitcoin because Bitcoin/Ethereum is software. See: https://www.livebitcoinnews.com/cve-2018-17144-the-aftermath-of-a-catastrophic-bitcoin-bug/ https://www.livebitcoinnews.com/cve-2018-17144-the-aftermath... When was the SWIFT protocol hacked? I'm guessing you're confusing stolen credentials with "hack" in that case which is indeed similar to the many cases where cryptocoin exchanges get hacked though stolen credentials and user funds are taken - except if that happens to your account at a normal bank you're protected with FDIC insurance or something similar depending on your bank. You're confused. Regular banks fail, and customer funds are protected. When a regular bank fails, that has absolutely nothing to do with debasing currency, nor does it affect the inflation rate. When you use Bitcoin there's a lot of trust needed that can't be guaranteed or verified, and while problems exist with traditional payment systems at least customers have protections and criminals or bad businesses can be held accountable. I'm not sure why you think avoiding a legal system, or avoiding financial regulations would help solve any of the problems with malicious scams and abuse? It sounds more like you're attempting to sell a product that does not fix any of those things, hoping to convince an audience to buy into an oligarchical penny stock ala https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Company_scrip https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Company_scrip
- r32a_ 8y ago
  I'm sorry your arguments do not make sense, I recommend you read about the multi-faceted nature of Bitcoin. You have a poorly researched and simplistic view of the topic, which is very common on HN. You are confusing Bitcoin with a payment network like VISA or PayPal. Hacks of exchanges are not related to Bitcoin itself, it is like saying, someone broke into my Gmail account because my password was easily guessed but you say TCP/IP broken. It does not make sense at all! > No customer protection and irreversible transactions = "This is a feature not a bug of bitcoin." Bitcoin has the economic principles of gold. * Pure raw gold has no consumer protection and it is irreversible. * Government cannot give FDIC insurance to gold bars, because governments cannot print gold bars out of thin air. * Unlike gold, Bitcoin is digital, which means it can be sent across borders at a low cost, (Almost free with LN) * You're comparing multiple things (Payment network, economic system, and governance system) with 1 piece of software. if you want to compare payment network features, then you have to compare bitcoin/LN transactions to VISA, PayPal..etc If you want to compare the economic system, then it's mostly Austrian vs Keynesian. If you want to compare governance then it's about libertarian/anarchist/decentralization vs Centralised governance. Unfortunately, you are coming across as very closed minded with same old tired arguments that were laid against bitcoin from inception, because the general population has a poor grasp of what it really is. Have a read of this, it's a bit dated but it's still good, if you want to have a better understanding of what bitcoin is: https://www.coindesk.com/nobody-understands-bitcoin-thats-ok https://www.coindesk.com/nobody-understands-bitcoin-thats-ok
  - nosuchthing 8y ago
    You seem to have no familuarity with software or computer science, and you're intentionally ignoring and evading addressing the issue with the Bitcoin bugs and hacks on BTC client wallet software, which keeps having bugs/hacks in the protocol itself allowing more free Bitcoins to be generated by hackers: https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Common_Vulnerabilities_and_Exposures https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Common_Vulnerabilities_and_Exposu... CVE-2010-5141 remote attack can spend anyone's balance CVE-2010-5139 On 15 August 2010 over 184 billion bitcoins were generated in a transaction, and sent to two addresses on the network. https://www.webcitation.org/6IwX8oDIN https://www.webcitation.org/6IwX8oDIN CVE-2012-2459 2012-05-14 This could be used to fork the blockchain, including deep double-spend attacks. CVE-2013-3219 Attacker can double-spend with 1 confirmation CVE-2018-17144 Multiple double spend bugs allowing a user to send more funds then available in wallet balance. This book offers a more comprehensive and detailed insight into the history and technical details of Bitcoin and the history of those involved within "the Blockchain community": https://davidgerard.co.uk/blockchain/book/ https://davidgerard.co.uk/blockchain/book/ If you look at the previous comments you keep ignoring the specific points explained against why your claims are disingenuous and naive and repeating the same tired marketing falsehoods in your attempt to convince rubes into buying database software which may very likely become obsolete at any moment in the immediate future. Why would you want to store your "money" in a fragile software system with no protection or safeguards? At least with gold, you won't have someone on the other side of the world capable of breaking into your house remotely and stealing your savings. Here's a recent research paper analysis on Bitcoin and the lightening network: https://ftalphaville.ft.com/2019/01/23/1548238967000/BIS-trolls-bitcoin/ https://ftalphaville.ft.com/2019/01/23/1548238967000/BIS-tro... https://www.bis.org/publ/work765.pdf https://www.bis.org/publ/work765.pdf https://www.ft.com/__origami/service/image/v2/images/raw/https%3A%2F%2Fd1e00ek4ebabms.cloudfront.net%2Fproduction%2Fadd09a38-cf8e-4b8a-afe8-c159dc5d850d_FINAL.png?source=Alphaville https://www.ft.com/__origami/service/image/v2/images/raw/htt...

by r32a_ 8y ago

nosuchthing 8y ago

No customer protection and irreversible transactions = "This is a feature not a bug of bitcoin." Shapeshift is not an atomic swap, it's an exchange and they charge a large fee on top of the current spot price determined by other major exchanges. Bitcoin hacks are related to Bitcoin because Bitcoin/Ethereum is software. See: https://www.livebitcoinnews.com/cve-2018-17144-the-aftermath-of-a-catastrophic-bitcoin-bug/ https://www.livebitcoinnews.com/cve-2018-17144-the-aftermath... When was the SWIFT protocol hacked? I'm guessing you're confusing stolen credentials with "hack" in that case which is indeed similar to the many cases where cryptocoin exchanges get hacked though stolen credentials and user funds are taken - except if that happens to your account at a normal bank you're protected with FDIC insurance or something similar depending on your bank. You're confused. Regular banks fail, and customer funds are protected. When a regular bank fails, that has absolutely nothing to do with debasing currency, nor does it affect the inflation rate. When you use Bitcoin there's a lot of trust needed that can't be guaranteed or verified, and while problems exist with traditional payment systems at least customers have protections and criminals or bad businesses can be held accountable. I'm not sure why you think avoiding a legal system, or avoiding financial regulations would help solve any of the problems with malicious scams and abuse? It sounds more like you're attempting to sell a product that does not fix any of those things, hoping to convince an audience to buy into an oligarchical penny stock ala https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Company_scrip https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Company_scrip

r32a_ 8y ago
I'm sorry your arguments do not make sense, I recommend you read about the multi-faceted nature of Bitcoin. You have a poorly researched and simplistic view of the topic, which is very common on HN. You are confusing Bitcoin with a payment network like VISA or PayPal. Hacks of exchanges are not related to Bitcoin itself, it is like saying, someone broke into my Gmail account because my password was easily guessed but you say TCP/IP broken. It does not make sense at all! > No customer protection and irreversible transactions = "This is a feature not a bug of bitcoin." Bitcoin has the economic principles of gold. * Pure raw gold has no consumer protection and it is irreversible. * Government cannot give FDIC insurance to gold bars, because governments cannot print gold bars out of thin air. * Unlike gold, Bitcoin is digital, which means it can be sent across borders at a low cost, (Almost free with LN) * You're comparing multiple things (Payment network, economic system, and governance system) with 1 piece of software. if you want to compare payment network features, then you have to compare bitcoin/LN transactions to VISA, PayPal..etc If you want to compare the economic system, then it's mostly Austrian vs Keynesian. If you want to compare governance then it's about libertarian/anarchist/decentralization vs Centralised governance. Unfortunately, you are coming across as very closed minded with same old tired arguments that were laid against bitcoin from inception, because the general population has a poor grasp of what it really is. Have a read of this, it's a bit dated but it's still good, if you want to have a better understanding of what bitcoin is: https://www.coindesk.com/nobody-understands-bitcoin-thats-ok https://www.coindesk.com/nobody-understands-bitcoin-thats-ok
- nosuchthing 8y ago
  You seem to have no familuarity with software or computer science, and you're intentionally ignoring and evading addressing the issue with the Bitcoin bugs and hacks on BTC client wallet software, which keeps having bugs/hacks in the protocol itself allowing more free Bitcoins to be generated by hackers: https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Common_Vulnerabilities_and_Exposures https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Common_Vulnerabilities_and_Exposu... CVE-2010-5141 remote attack can spend anyone's balance CVE-2010-5139 On 15 August 2010 over 184 billion bitcoins were generated in a transaction, and sent to two addresses on the network. https://www.webcitation.org/6IwX8oDIN https://www.webcitation.org/6IwX8oDIN CVE-2012-2459 2012-05-14 This could be used to fork the blockchain, including deep double-spend attacks. CVE-2013-3219 Attacker can double-spend with 1 confirmation CVE-2018-17144 Multiple double spend bugs allowing a user to send more funds then available in wallet balance. This book offers a more comprehensive and detailed insight into the history and technical details of Bitcoin and the history of those involved within "the Blockchain community": https://davidgerard.co.uk/blockchain/book/ https://davidgerard.co.uk/blockchain/book/ If you look at the previous comments you keep ignoring the specific points explained against why your claims are disingenuous and naive and repeating the same tired marketing falsehoods in your attempt to convince rubes into buying database software which may very likely become obsolete at any moment in the immediate future. Why would you want to store your "money" in a fragile software system with no protection or safeguards? At least with gold, you won't have someone on the other side of the world capable of breaking into your house remotely and stealing your savings. Here's a recent research paper analysis on Bitcoin and the lightening network: https://ftalphaville.ft.com/2019/01/23/1548238967000/BIS-trolls-bitcoin/ https://ftalphaville.ft.com/2019/01/23/1548238967000/BIS-tro... https://www.bis.org/publ/work765.pdf https://www.bis.org/publ/work765.pdf https://www.ft.com/__origami/service/image/v2/images/raw/https%3A%2F%2Fd1e00ek4ebabms.cloudfront.net%2Fproduction%2Fadd09a38-cf8e-4b8a-afe8-c159dc5d850d_FINAL.png?source=Alphaville https://www.ft.com/__origami/service/image/v2/images/raw/htt...