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Would a member of the Pagedraw team share a postmortem? Seems like this is a huge need and will be the future state of web / mobile design - what stopped you g

Would a member of the Pagedraw team share a postmortem? Seems like this is a huge need and will be the future state of web / mobile design - what stopped you guys?

madeofpalk 8y ago
I think the reality is, no matter how awesome and impressive these tools are, they just don't seem to have a fit in the market. Prefacing this with the fact I don't know all that much about the product, only a quick glance For a big team of developers, building a big website with complicated interactions or requirements, a tool like this isn't going to meet all the requirements the developers have If you're building something simpler, then you're probably better served by something like Webflow or Squarespace.
- muhneesh 8y ago
  At a high level, that makes some sense - these tools might not be the most practical way to get from point A -> point B today for a typical web or mobile app. In my head, I'm wondering if they are just way too early? Going from design -> code -> UI is, in theory, less efficient than just going from design -> UI, in a programmable, customizable, scalable way.
- samanator 8y ago
  Skuid, which is a page builder for Salesforce (now branching out to more platforms) is doing very well. At the company I work at we are going to switch away from it due to the limitations you insinuated, but there's definitely a fit for it in the Salesforce world.
  - deleted 8y ago
    [deleted]
codingdave 8y ago
Probably the same as every other attempt at this since the mid 90s. People who can code front-ends don't need such a tool. People who cannot code front-ends hire people who can, and still don't need such a tool.
- kkarakk 8y ago
  yup you can(surprisingly imo) make a pretty penny on freelancing just setting up static websites on wix for people making stuff is never going to go mainstream when you can just pay someone to do it for you
- pjmlp 8y ago
  I can code frontends and I rather be productive with any help I can get, than writing everything by hand. Loved Delphi, Forms, Blend, Netbeans Matisse and JSF designer, Blend, Outsystems, ... As mentioned in another thread, these kind of tools with good workflows and developer experience don't get written for free.
- PurpleRamen 8y ago
  Not all UI-builders are a fail. Visual Basic, Qt, Delphi, MS Access all had/have some very popular and useful UI-Builder. There is always a middle between no skill and high skill.
pjmlp 8y ago
I guess the common trend that not everyone wants to pay for their tools.
gablg1 8y ago
Here it is: https://medium.com/@gabriel_20625/technical-lessons-from-building-a-compiler-startup-for-3-years-4473405161cd?fbclid=IwAR1N7RsoO_sN34Lg3BpZ-ITXVGpeEj-h_Ctr9QaGWbAPVsIZe_KCemA2bcY https://medium.com/@gabriel_20625/technical-lessons-from-bui...
- muhneesh 8y ago
  Thanks for this - interesting that you focused the postmortem on technical lessons (other than #1). I'm super curious around what the sales strategy was. I'd imagine for devs, it would have to be around productivity (time saved by exporting vs. manually coding, adherence to consistent CSS standards, etc.). For designers, I would imagine it would be around taking more of the software dev lifecycle - e.g. designers can now eat up part of the value that front-end dev provides. Based on that, designers should be more in demand, paid more, and so on. Those seem like huge levers to pull from a PMF perspective, but to your point, maybe it all sounds great until you get into that conversation, and it's really not something that teams are looking for (at least right now).

Would a member of the Pagedraw team share a postmortem? Seems like this is a huge need and will be the future state of web / mobile design - what stopped you guys?

madeofpalk 8y ago

I think the reality is, no matter how awesome and impressive these tools are, they just don't seem to have a fit in the market. Prefacing this with the fact I don't know all that much about the product, only a quick glance For a big team of developers, building a big website with complicated interactions or requirements, a tool like this isn't going to meet all the requirements the developers have If you're building something simpler, then you're probably better served by something like Webflow or Squarespace.

muhneesh 8y ago
At a high level, that makes some sense - these tools might not be the most practical way to get from point A -> point B today for a typical web or mobile app. In my head, I'm wondering if they are just way too early? Going from design -> code -> UI is, in theory, less efficient than just going from design -> UI, in a programmable, customizable, scalable way.
samanator 8y ago
Skuid, which is a page builder for Salesforce (now branching out to more platforms) is doing very well. At the company I work at we are going to switch away from it due to the limitations you insinuated, but there's definitely a fit for it in the Salesforce world.
- deleted 8y ago
  [deleted]

codingdave 8y ago

Probably the same as every other attempt at this since the mid 90s. People who can code front-ends don't need such a tool. People who cannot code front-ends hire people who can, and still don't need such a tool.

kkarakk 8y ago
yup you can(surprisingly imo) make a pretty penny on freelancing just setting up static websites on wix for people making stuff is never going to go mainstream when you can just pay someone to do it for you
pjmlp 8y ago
I can code frontends and I rather be productive with any help I can get, than writing everything by hand. Loved Delphi, Forms, Blend, Netbeans Matisse and JSF designer, Blend, Outsystems, ... As mentioned in another thread, these kind of tools with good workflows and developer experience don't get written for free.
PurpleRamen 8y ago
Not all UI-builders are a fail. Visual Basic, Qt, Delphi, MS Access all had/have some very popular and useful UI-Builder. There is always a middle between no skill and high skill.

pjmlp 8y ago

I guess the common trend that not everyone wants to pay for their tools.

gablg1 8y ago

Here it is: https://medium.com/@gabriel_20625/technical-lessons-from-building-a-compiler-startup-for-3-years-4473405161cd?fbclid=IwAR1N7RsoO_sN34Lg3BpZ-ITXVGpeEj-h_Ctr9QaGWbAPVsIZe_KCemA2bcY https://medium.com/@gabriel_20625/technical-lessons-from-bui...

muhneesh 8y ago
Thanks for this - interesting that you focused the postmortem on technical lessons (other than #1). I'm super curious around what the sales strategy was. I'd imagine for devs, it would have to be around productivity (time saved by exporting vs. manually coding, adherence to consistent CSS standards, etc.). For designers, I would imagine it would be around taking more of the software dev lifecycle - e.g. designers can now eat up part of the value that front-end dev provides. Based on that, designers should be more in demand, paid more, and so on. Those seem like huge levers to pull from a PMF perspective, but to your point, maybe it all sounds great until you get into that conversation, and it's really not something that teams are looking for (at least right now).