7 ms·

RMS sold GPLed software in the early days. RMS is also someone who made deep personal sacrifices to see a certain vision of freedom prevail, or rather be preser

by drats 16y ago

RMS sold GPLed software in the early days. RMS is also someone who made deep personal sacrifices to see a certain vision of freedom prevail, or rather be preserved. That seems to me to be very American.

hasenj 16y ago
Sacrificing yourself for the greater good? Doesn't sound very American to me. The fact he made sacrifices instead of making billions to develop software is a proof of my point about GNU being very far from the ideas of capitalism.
- drats 16y ago
  I said "freedom" and you changed that to "greater good" to try to win the argument. Stallman was pursuing his lifestyle, people started to mess with it, so he created a legal document to secure his own freedoms and those of others. This enabled him to live his life as he wanted and helped a lot of other people - many who disagree with him on points minor and major - to live their lives the way they want to. In that sense its an individualistic community that values freedom protected by a clever legal document. Now if you think "making money" describes the USA better than "individualistic community that values freedom protected by a clever legal document", you'd be wrong. I am not from America, but looking from afar I often get sick of the crude anti-Americanism that seems to get an intellectual free pass all the time. What can be more American than high level science? Given the endless Nobel prizes and technical innovations of the USA I'd think you could point to the AI lab at MIT as being a good symbol (among many) for the American contributions to science. It's ultimately American. Smack bang in the middle of the one of the first states which has always been an intellectual powerhouse mirroring the parts of England from which its settlers first came. A place which also bears the name "the Cradle of Liberty" with many political triumphs. The "blue states", as a reductionist might call them, don't play themselves up to us in the rest of the world, or domestically, as often as they perhaps should; that doesn't mean they aren't powerful or haven't changed the world in massive ways. And more than just residing in a center of American liberty and intellectual achievement Stallman used a clever legal document to do it. Lawyer jokes aside, using the beautiful common law system to protect rights, what could be more American? Starting a revolution rather than play along with it when someone gets up in your face and starts messing with your lifestyle. Tell me which country fits that description better than the USA. Yes, there is more than one America, there is Wallstreet and the Ayn Rand impulse you point to. I am not denying those exist, but don't try to claim them as being the only America or claim that they are the summation of one of the most important countries (perhaps "the most important country") in the history of human civilization. Stallman is as American as apple pie.
  - hasenj 16y ago
    I didn't change what you said. You said "to see a certain vision of freedom prevail", I just shortened that for you. Stallman isn't just pursuing his own lifestyle, he think his lifestyle is the only valid lifestyle. OK, not exactly, but when it comes to "Free Software", he basically thinks his point of view is pretty much the only ethically acceptable one, and any attempt to make propriety software is unethical. He never intended for any part of GNU to be used in propriety software, although sometimes GNU programs get shipped with closed systems (I believe some parts of the GNU user-land get shipped with OS X). So, people who disagree with him (by opinion and by action) end up benefiting from his work, but he never actually intended that, and he would always try to circumvent that when ever possible, see: http://www.gnu.org/philosophy/why-not-lgpl.html http://www.gnu.org/philosophy/why-not-lgpl.html "What's American?" is somewhat a philosophical question, but in this context, I'm referring mainly to the part of mainstream America that encourages collecting large sums of wealth for creating technology. > What can be more American than high level science? Science is much, much older than America, and scientific research exists in many places throughout the world. > I'd think you could point to the AI lab at MIT as being a good symbol (among many) for the American contributions to science. It is. "America contributes a lot to science" is one thing, but "science is American" is a completely different thing. I'm actually sick of all the good things being attributed to America. On the international stage, America, as a country, is the biggest bully. > Starting a revolution rather than play along with it when someone gets up in your face and starts messing with your lifestyle. Funny, because when other people do that, they're called "terrorists".
- anamax 16y ago
  > Sacrificing yourself for the greater good? Doesn't sound very American to me. Actually, "sacrificing yourself" for what you believe in is very American. You seem to think that America is a specific class of alternatives. It isn't. It's the freedom to make the choices that you prefer.

by drats 16y ago

hasenj 16y ago

Sacrificing yourself for the greater good? Doesn't sound very American to me. The fact he made sacrifices instead of making billions to develop software is a proof of my point about GNU being very far from the ideas of capitalism.

drats 16y ago
I said "freedom" and you changed that to "greater good" to try to win the argument. Stallman was pursuing his lifestyle, people started to mess with it, so he created a legal document to secure his own freedoms and those of others. This enabled him to live his life as he wanted and helped a lot of other people - many who disagree with him on points minor and major - to live their lives the way they want to. In that sense its an individualistic community that values freedom protected by a clever legal document. Now if you think "making money" describes the USA better than "individualistic community that values freedom protected by a clever legal document", you'd be wrong. I am not from America, but looking from afar I often get sick of the crude anti-Americanism that seems to get an intellectual free pass all the time. What can be more American than high level science? Given the endless Nobel prizes and technical innovations of the USA I'd think you could point to the AI lab at MIT as being a good symbol (among many) for the American contributions to science. It's ultimately American. Smack bang in the middle of the one of the first states which has always been an intellectual powerhouse mirroring the parts of England from which its settlers first came. A place which also bears the name "the Cradle of Liberty" with many political triumphs. The "blue states", as a reductionist might call them, don't play themselves up to us in the rest of the world, or domestically, as often as they perhaps should; that doesn't mean they aren't powerful or haven't changed the world in massive ways. And more than just residing in a center of American liberty and intellectual achievement Stallman used a clever legal document to do it. Lawyer jokes aside, using the beautiful common law system to protect rights, what could be more American? Starting a revolution rather than play along with it when someone gets up in your face and starts messing with your lifestyle. Tell me which country fits that description better than the USA. Yes, there is more than one America, there is Wallstreet and the Ayn Rand impulse you point to. I am not denying those exist, but don't try to claim them as being the only America or claim that they are the summation of one of the most important countries (perhaps "the most important country") in the history of human civilization. Stallman is as American as apple pie.
- hasenj 16y ago
  I didn't change what you said. You said "to see a certain vision of freedom prevail", I just shortened that for you. Stallman isn't just pursuing his own lifestyle, he think his lifestyle is the only valid lifestyle. OK, not exactly, but when it comes to "Free Software", he basically thinks his point of view is pretty much the only ethically acceptable one, and any attempt to make propriety software is unethical. He never intended for any part of GNU to be used in propriety software, although sometimes GNU programs get shipped with closed systems (I believe some parts of the GNU user-land get shipped with OS X). So, people who disagree with him (by opinion and by action) end up benefiting from his work, but he never actually intended that, and he would always try to circumvent that when ever possible, see: http://www.gnu.org/philosophy/why-not-lgpl.html http://www.gnu.org/philosophy/why-not-lgpl.html "What's American?" is somewhat a philosophical question, but in this context, I'm referring mainly to the part of mainstream America that encourages collecting large sums of wealth for creating technology. > What can be more American than high level science? Science is much, much older than America, and scientific research exists in many places throughout the world. > I'd think you could point to the AI lab at MIT as being a good symbol (among many) for the American contributions to science. It is. "America contributes a lot to science" is one thing, but "science is American" is a completely different thing. I'm actually sick of all the good things being attributed to America. On the international stage, America, as a country, is the biggest bully. > Starting a revolution rather than play along with it when someone gets up in your face and starts messing with your lifestyle. Funny, because when other people do that, they're called "terrorists".
anamax 16y ago
> Sacrificing yourself for the greater good? Doesn't sound very American to me. Actually, "sacrificing yourself" for what you believe in is very American. You seem to think that America is a specific class of alternatives. It isn't. It's the freedom to make the choices that you prefer.