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The websites I constantly use every single day: google.com maps.google.com youtube.com wikipedia.org weather.gov stackoverflow.com For almost 20 y

by jasode 8y ago

The websites I constantly use every single day: google.com maps.google.com youtube.com wikipedia.org weather.gov stackoverflow.com For almost 20 years, I've been using Google for dozens of random searches every single day. Its utility to help me find information is unmatched. And Youtube -- even with the ads -- adds value to my life because of all the helpful tutorials and DIY content I can view for free. On the other hand, I've never needed to create accounts for Facebook or LinkedIn. Unlike google/wikipedia/stackoverflow, I think of Facebook as my adversary that's reckless with personal data and harming me. I assume they are developing more unethical uses of personal data but we don't know about them yet because an ex-Facebook employee hasn't publicized them. The questionable ethics starts at the top with Mark Z. I do think humanity would be served by a "real names" database by an entity we could trust to help us connect with each other. Unfortunately, that valuable info is currently held by an unethical company like Facebook. (My previous comment about this.[0]) They abuse their stewardship of the social graph which is why I adamantly avoid them. Facebook was a bad actor even before all the revelations about Russian funded political ads to hijack the election. [0] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=18728061 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=18728061

sephoric 8y ago
Facebook is harmful because it's reckless with your personal data, but Google is invaluable because of its utility and amazing results? It's able to provide those results because it steals your data, which it also abuses and sells. And as an alternative to YouTube, there are free public libraries with similar DIY books complete with pictures and drawings, but without stealing and selling your data.
- jasode 8y ago
  >, but Google is invaluable because of its utility and amazing results? It's able to provide those results because it steals your data What data from me does Google steal? I don't have a Google account. I can be anonymous at a Starbucks coffee shop and search google for "Paul Graham" and get back useful results. If they coalesce search queries on my home ip address, that's unavoidable and a tradeoff I knowingly make. >And as an alternative to YouTube, there are free public libraries with similar DIY books In the last month, I needed to replace a side mirror of a Lexus car and also disassemble a Moen faucet. No, my library does not have the manuals to show how to do it. But youtube did have the videos uploaded by nice people. Both of those procedures had tricky steps that weren't obvious and Youtube saved me hundreds of dollars in fees from car dealerships and plumbers.
  - czardoz 8y ago
    > I can be anonymous at Starbucks coffee shop and search google The "Google WiFi"? > I assume they are developing more unethical uses of personal data Why not make the same assumption about Google? They could jot down the MAC address of your device, and track you all over the place (not that they need to, since you already use Google maps).
    - jasode 8y ago
      >They could jot down the MAC address of your device, and track you Yes but a wifi MAC address is not my real name. I'd be more concerned if Google bought a telecom company like AT&T/Verizon and linked phones' IMEI/ESN hardware numbers to search queries. The IMEI is absolutely linked to a real identity because it's the billing address of the person paying for the phone. The MAC address correlation seems more useful for targeted ads rather than abusing personal real names data like Equifax & Facebook.
      - FB_goaway 8y ago
        not only that you can forge a MAC address in a number of ways, such as configuration, or with a bridge, there are very tiny routers that fit in a cigarette pack or a coffee cup.
    - mda 8y ago
      Why would they do that, It makes zero sense to assume they would do that and deliberately break their privacy policies.
      - czardoz 8y ago
        Oh, but it somehow makes sense to assume the other way for Facebook?
        mda 8y ago
        I don't think they knowingly violate their privacy policies either.
- kanox 8y ago
  > Google is invaluable because of its utility and amazing results? It's able to provide those results because it steals your data, which it also abuses and sells. I've been using DuckDuckGo lately and haven't noticed a drop in search quality. But I've always maxed out Google privacy settings so maybe I don't know what I'm missing.
- herbst 8y ago
  They however provide a unique service and never failed to protect my data. The only reason to use Facebook instead of anything else is the amount of people on there, it's not unique and also by far not better than other similar products. It's hard to say the same about Googles services.
mAEStro-paNDa 8y ago
I sympathize much with your stance on Facebook. However, I'm curious, what keeps Google from being an adversary in your perspective?
- trobertson 8y ago
  Google products and services tend to provide immediate and obvious value. Unlike the "connections" businesses where "value" is poorly defined and prone to change.
- parthdesai 8y ago
  >what keeps Google from being an adversary in your perspective? If you visit a country where you don't speak the native language, Google maps will help navigate through the country or city. Even help with public transport. Youtube helps with DIY videos or programming talks. I wouldn't have discovered Khan academy without google. And before you say DuckDuckGo is an alternative, i have DuckDuckGo installed and i prefix my query with "!g" around 90% of the time.
  - x3n0ph3n3 8y ago
    I guess you've never been to South Korea, where Google Maps is crippled by law. You have to use a domestic app like Navier if you want to get around.
    - parthdesai 8y ago
      I guess you haven't been to Prague or Berlin or Toronto or NYC or Chicago where it works perfectly. Sure, It doesn't work everywhere but chances are it will work in a given city and if it doesn't, you can fall back on some domestic app. Would Navier work in Toronto?
porpoisely 8y ago
I don't get this. Google tracks more of your data than Facebook and yet you are praising google and denouncing facebook? Also the silliness about russian election meddling has got to stop. The "russians" also spent a few thousand on google/youtube too. A few thousand in ad spending isn't going to affect an election where billions are spent. This seems to be a constant here for some odd reason. Facebook does X hence facebook is evil. Google does the same X hence google is good. I've never had a facebook account and never will. Never had a linkedin. I don't use google search ( switched to DDG ), though I do use youtube ( but willing to switch whenever a viable alternative shows up. To me they are all equally bad and equally good. They all provide a service for your data.
- jasode 8y ago
  >Google tracks more of your data than Facebook Yes, there are stories[0] that say they track more data but the difference is Facebook's track record for abuse. So far, I'm unaware of any harm Google has done with my history of search queries tied to my wifi MAC address (as another poster commented I should worry about). >Google does the same X hence google is good. No, I don't buy Google's "don't be evil" slogan. >To me they are all equally bad and equally good. I disagree. They are different in severity. I think Facebook in particular has repeatedly demonstrated a track record of unethical behavior. So far, I think the evidence shows Mark Z has a different set of ethics and principles than folks like Larry Page and Tim Cook. This doesn't mean I give Google a free pass or that I'm not wary of them. So far, my "trade" with using Google's search engine seems fair and I will stop using them when proven otherwise. I can't say the same for Facebook. [0] https://www.wsj.com/articles/who-has-more-of-your-personal-data-than-facebook-try-google-1524398401 https://www.wsj.com/articles/who-has-more-of-your-personal-d...
  - porpoisely 8y ago
    You claim that Facebook has a record of abuse that google doesn't. What does facebook do that google doesn't do? You claim google's activity hasn't harmed you. How has facebook harmed you then? Also, what evidence shows that Zuckerberg has different set of ethics and principles than Page or Tim Cook? You make general claims but you haven't provided any concrete examples. As far as I can tell, they are all equally greedy billionaires trying to make as much money as possible. Of the 3, Tim Cook probably has more to answer for considering Apple's long history in china and the use of sweatshops. The only thing concrete you provided is a a wsj article which supports my argument. So I'm confused why you included that.
aestetix 8y ago
> I do think humanity would be served by a "real names" database by an entity we could trust to help us connect with each other. Unfortunately, that valuable info is currently held by an unethical company like Facebook. (My previous comment about this.[0]) They abuse their stewardship of the social graph which is why I adamantly avoid them. You mean like the phone book?
- 52-6F-62 8y ago
  The Yellow Pages are still out there :) They of course don't have unlisted cell phone numbers by default, so it's not of much use these days. Couldn't find myself in Toronto. https://www.yellowpages.ca/ https://www.yellowpages.ca/ https://www.yellowpages.com/ https://www.yellowpages.com/
- rabidrat 8y ago
  I was looking for someone I knew in college (20 years ago) last night, who has a very common name, and I don't know where they live now. The value of the all-encompassing social network is that I should be able to narrow it down to only a handful of candidates based on their proximity to me in the social graph.

by jasode 8y ago

sephoric 8y ago

Facebook is harmful because it's reckless with your personal data, but Google is invaluable because of its utility and amazing results? It's able to provide those results because it steals your data, which it also abuses and sells. And as an alternative to YouTube, there are free public libraries with similar DIY books complete with pictures and drawings, but without stealing and selling your data.

jasode 8y ago
>, but Google is invaluable because of its utility and amazing results? It's able to provide those results because it steals your data What data from me does Google steal? I don't have a Google account. I can be anonymous at a Starbucks coffee shop and search google for "Paul Graham" and get back useful results. If they coalesce search queries on my home ip address, that's unavoidable and a tradeoff I knowingly make. >And as an alternative to YouTube, there are free public libraries with similar DIY books In the last month, I needed to replace a side mirror of a Lexus car and also disassemble a Moen faucet. No, my library does not have the manuals to show how to do it. But youtube did have the videos uploaded by nice people. Both of those procedures had tricky steps that weren't obvious and Youtube saved me hundreds of dollars in fees from car dealerships and plumbers.
- czardoz 8y ago
  > I can be anonymous at Starbucks coffee shop and search google The "Google WiFi"? > I assume they are developing more unethical uses of personal data Why not make the same assumption about Google? They could jot down the MAC address of your device, and track you all over the place (not that they need to, since you already use Google maps).
  - jasode 8y ago
    >They could jot down the MAC address of your device, and track you Yes but a wifi MAC address is not my real name. I'd be more concerned if Google bought a telecom company like AT&T/Verizon and linked phones' IMEI/ESN hardware numbers to search queries. The IMEI is absolutely linked to a real identity because it's the billing address of the person paying for the phone. The MAC address correlation seems more useful for targeted ads rather than abusing personal real names data like Equifax & Facebook.
    - FB_goaway 8y ago
      not only that you can forge a MAC address in a number of ways, such as configuration, or with a bridge, there are very tiny routers that fit in a cigarette pack or a coffee cup.
  - mda 8y ago
    Why would they do that, It makes zero sense to assume they would do that and deliberately break their privacy policies.
    - czardoz 8y ago
      Oh, but it somehow makes sense to assume the other way for Facebook?
      - mda 8y ago
        I don't think they knowingly violate their privacy policies either.
kanox 8y ago
> Google is invaluable because of its utility and amazing results? It's able to provide those results because it steals your data, which it also abuses and sells. I've been using DuckDuckGo lately and haven't noticed a drop in search quality. But I've always maxed out Google privacy settings so maybe I don't know what I'm missing.
herbst 8y ago
They however provide a unique service and never failed to protect my data. The only reason to use Facebook instead of anything else is the amount of people on there, it's not unique and also by far not better than other similar products. It's hard to say the same about Googles services.

mAEStro-paNDa 8y ago

I sympathize much with your stance on Facebook. However, I'm curious, what keeps Google from being an adversary in your perspective?

trobertson 8y ago
Google products and services tend to provide immediate and obvious value. Unlike the "connections" businesses where "value" is poorly defined and prone to change.
parthdesai 8y ago
>what keeps Google from being an adversary in your perspective? If you visit a country where you don't speak the native language, Google maps will help navigate through the country or city. Even help with public transport. Youtube helps with DIY videos or programming talks. I wouldn't have discovered Khan academy without google. And before you say DuckDuckGo is an alternative, i have DuckDuckGo installed and i prefix my query with "!g" around 90% of the time.
- x3n0ph3n3 8y ago
  I guess you've never been to South Korea, where Google Maps is crippled by law. You have to use a domestic app like Navier if you want to get around.
  - parthdesai 8y ago
    I guess you haven't been to Prague or Berlin or Toronto or NYC or Chicago where it works perfectly. Sure, It doesn't work everywhere but chances are it will work in a given city and if it doesn't, you can fall back on some domestic app. Would Navier work in Toronto?

porpoisely 8y ago

I don't get this. Google tracks more of your data than Facebook and yet you are praising google and denouncing facebook? Also the silliness about russian election meddling has got to stop. The "russians" also spent a few thousand on google/youtube too. A few thousand in ad spending isn't going to affect an election where billions are spent. This seems to be a constant here for some odd reason. Facebook does X hence facebook is evil. Google does the same X hence google is good. I've never had a facebook account and never will. Never had a linkedin. I don't use google search ( switched to DDG ), though I do use youtube ( but willing to switch whenever a viable alternative shows up. To me they are all equally bad and equally good. They all provide a service for your data.

jasode 8y ago
>Google tracks more of your data than Facebook Yes, there are stories[0] that say they track more data but the difference is Facebook's track record for abuse. So far, I'm unaware of any harm Google has done with my history of search queries tied to my wifi MAC address (as another poster commented I should worry about). >Google does the same X hence google is good. No, I don't buy Google's "don't be evil" slogan. >To me they are all equally bad and equally good. I disagree. They are different in severity. I think Facebook in particular has repeatedly demonstrated a track record of unethical behavior. So far, I think the evidence shows Mark Z has a different set of ethics and principles than folks like Larry Page and Tim Cook. This doesn't mean I give Google a free pass or that I'm not wary of them. So far, my "trade" with using Google's search engine seems fair and I will stop using them when proven otherwise. I can't say the same for Facebook. [0] https://www.wsj.com/articles/who-has-more-of-your-personal-data-than-facebook-try-google-1524398401 https://www.wsj.com/articles/who-has-more-of-your-personal-d...
- porpoisely 8y ago
  You claim that Facebook has a record of abuse that google doesn't. What does facebook do that google doesn't do? You claim google's activity hasn't harmed you. How has facebook harmed you then? Also, what evidence shows that Zuckerberg has different set of ethics and principles than Page or Tim Cook? You make general claims but you haven't provided any concrete examples. As far as I can tell, they are all equally greedy billionaires trying to make as much money as possible. Of the 3, Tim Cook probably has more to answer for considering Apple's long history in china and the use of sweatshops. The only thing concrete you provided is a a wsj article which supports my argument. So I'm confused why you included that.

aestetix 8y ago

> I do think humanity would be served by a "real names" database by an entity we could trust to help us connect with each other. Unfortunately, that valuable info is currently held by an unethical company like Facebook. (My previous comment about this.[0]) They abuse their stewardship of the social graph which is why I adamantly avoid them. You mean like the phone book?

52-6F-62 8y ago
The Yellow Pages are still out there :) They of course don't have unlisted cell phone numbers by default, so it's not of much use these days. Couldn't find myself in Toronto. https://www.yellowpages.ca/ https://www.yellowpages.ca/ https://www.yellowpages.com/ https://www.yellowpages.com/
rabidrat 8y ago
I was looking for someone I knew in college (20 years ago) last night, who has a very common name, and I don't know where they live now. The value of the all-encompassing social network is that I should be able to narrow it down to only a handful of candidates based on their proximity to me in the social graph.