5 ms·

Super-thin things are great. Some people love them and will pay dearly to have them. The problem is not in building thin devices, it's with ONLY building thin d

by jwr 8y ago

Super-thin things are great. Some people love them and will pay dearly to have them. The problem is not in building thin devices, it's with ONLY building thin devices. In a complete product line there should be an ultra-thin laptop, and a thicker "PRO" model that has a decent set of ports (bring back USB-A so that we can do our pro work without dongles please!), is reliable, has a good keyboard and battery life. I should be able to choose whether I need thinness or not (in my case, I don't much care). The MacBook line is going through a dark age right now, where seemingly people who design them are not the same people that use them. My personal suspicion is that Jony Ive (whom I do not consider to be a "Pro" mac user) became too powerful and people can't oppose his taste and his decisions. The worst thing about all of this is that Apple is (still) so far ahead of everybody else. I really, really wish there was a viable competitor. The problem is that with the lead that Apple has with MacOS and iOS and with the ridiculous amounts of money that they have it will be very difficult to catch up.

vinceguidry 8y ago
Diversifying the product line for every single customer desire will lead to Apple's slow evolution into Dell. We already have a Dell. Apple needs to be free to focus on making computers the Apple way.
- setquk 8y ago
  I’d take “dell that works properly”
komali2 8y ago
What makes you feel that there are no viable competitors? On the hardware, build quality, screen quality, customization, fixit score and ports scales the HP Spectre and Lenovo carbon have been winning critics. Is it osx only that makes you say this? I've seen hackintoshes in the past, would that be viable?
- jwr 8y ago
  Yes, macOS and companion iOS are the real problem here. Together with the hardware they form an "ecosystem", which is conducive to getting things done, especially for people who need to juggle many responsibilities at once (think entrepreneurs/bootstrappers) and who really do not have time to deal with OS issues. And please believe me that I did my homework before saying "no viable competitors". I regularly use Linux, Mac OS and Windows. It's not even close. I mean, seriously, Linux doesn't even have a sane concept of a system-wide clipboard. So in the end, hardware itself doesn't matter much, unless you mostly stare at it. If you want to use it to get work done, what matters is the entire package: hardware, OS, application software, companion devices.
  - int_19h 8y ago
    Millions of people "get work done" on Windows, though. And, conversely, you only need to scan the comments here to see some about how they had to deal with OS issues on Macs.
    - bradknowles 8y ago
      Yeah, and millions of people in the world don’t have running water or any kind of heat in their homes, and those homes don’t have any insulation. And those homes might not even have three walls, much less four. Just because millions of people might live in abject poverty doesn’t mean that I should aspire to doing so.
  - komali2 8y ago
    System wide clipboard? Interesting, what does that mean? I've never had issues copy/pasting.
w0utert 8y ago
>> The MacBook line is going through a dark age right now, where seemingly people who design them are not the same people that use them. That might be true, at least for some subset of MacBook Pro users, but it is also possible to have a slightly more optimistic view. Instead of being in a 'dark age' you could also see the current models as 'transitional', in the sense that the long-term goal is to have a MBP that is very powerful and thin and caters to all target audiences. Look at the very first MacBook Air for example, that was a pretty shitty laptop in almost every way, except for thinness. In fact, I don't think it improved on earlier Apple laptops in any other way. And it was ridiculously expensive to boot. But it did set a precedent: in terms of size, Apple laptops would from that point on be measured against the MBA, and technology just had to catch up, eventually resulting in the later MBA's. Which I actually think are one of the best laptop series Apple ever made. I don't disagree that for some people the current MBP line-up is a regression, even though I absolutely love mine and have no problems with it except its cost. And I consider myself relatively far towards the power-user demographic, using my laptop primarily for development and heavy compute loads. But my feeling is that the MBP we will see one or two generations from now will be much better and thin, and everyone will have forgotten about USB-A ports and keyboard design flaws.
- jandrese 8y ago
  Ultimately building ultra-thing requires design tradeoffs. If you can build a thin machine with a powerful processor, lots of ram, huge SSD, powerful graphics, long battery life, and big beautiful screen you could build a thicker laptop that's even more powerful and has better expansion options. You can do a lot with good design, but it's asking too much of Apple's engineers to break the laws of thermodynamics.
  - w0utert 8y ago
    By that logic a laptop is never big enough, as you can always cram more and more into it, until you end up with a desktop workstation. The premise is that at some point the components you can fit in a thin and light laptop, are powerful enough for any use case people realistically expect to be able to use a laptop for. Obviously you can still make something even more powerful, but the people who care about these things are very likely to go for a workstation anyway. It has always been like this, but now it looks like we are almost at the point where CPU's and GPU's are becoming power-efficient enough that the law of diminishing returns says you actually can cram enough power in a thin and light laptop like the MBP to satisfy just about anyone who wouldn't get a desktop workstation anyway. Case in point: just have a look at gaming laptops. While you can still get ridiculous monstrosities that weigh 12 kg and run less than one hour on a single charge under load, the trend is thinner and lighter for this category as well.
jakobegger 8y ago
They actually do build a thick computer with lots of ports: The 2018 Mac mini. It's awesome. Thunderbolt, USB-C, USB-A, HDMI, Ethernet, Headphone .... it really has everything you need. It's not really portable, but if you're a Pro, and need all those ports, chances are that you work at a desk and don't actually need a portable Mac.
- bobthepanda 8y ago
  I don't know - I do quite like being able to swap between the office, working from home, working from a coffeeshop, and having the ability to deal with emergent emergencies anywhere with my 2015 MBP. A charging port, two USB-A, and two Thunderbolt is more than sufficient for my needs; the headphone jack is a nice touch. It's a shame that the MBP line went backwards in terms of functionality. If I wanted a gimped MBP I'd get an Air.
- pkamb 8y ago
  It also just came out, and for years this device did not exist / was woefully outdated. Glad to see that change.
coryfklein 8y ago
And they're already set up for this with their MacBook Air SKU. That product should be optimizing for thinness at all costs, while the MacBook Pro should be about functionality, usability, and power. Instead the MacBook Pro is essentially "the laptop with a larger screen".
intopieces 8y ago
>(bring back USB-A so that we can do our pro work without dongles please!) Serious question: what hardware are you using that requires dongles? I spent about $30 replacing the cables on all my devices with USB-C. I have never used a dongle. Is there pro hardware out there with USB-A cable permanently attached?
- lokedhs 8y ago
  USB thumbdrives?
  - intopieces 8y ago
    Easily replaced with USB-C/USB-A dual interface if you need to interact with older hardware. I understand that not everyone wants to re-buy all their gear, but this a really cheap change for anyone who is already shelling out $2000 or more for a pro-level laptop. We are almost 3 years into the USB-C-only MacBook era, prices have dropped significantly on those peripherals.

by jwr 8y ago

vinceguidry 8y ago

Diversifying the product line for every single customer desire will lead to Apple's slow evolution into Dell. We already have a Dell. Apple needs to be free to focus on making computers the Apple way.

setquk 8y ago
I’d take “dell that works properly”

komali2 8y ago

What makes you feel that there are no viable competitors? On the hardware, build quality, screen quality, customization, fixit score and ports scales the HP Spectre and Lenovo carbon have been winning critics. Is it osx only that makes you say this? I've seen hackintoshes in the past, would that be viable?

jwr 8y ago
Yes, macOS and companion iOS are the real problem here. Together with the hardware they form an "ecosystem", which is conducive to getting things done, especially for people who need to juggle many responsibilities at once (think entrepreneurs/bootstrappers) and who really do not have time to deal with OS issues. And please believe me that I did my homework before saying "no viable competitors". I regularly use Linux, Mac OS and Windows. It's not even close. I mean, seriously, Linux doesn't even have a sane concept of a system-wide clipboard. So in the end, hardware itself doesn't matter much, unless you mostly stare at it. If you want to use it to get work done, what matters is the entire package: hardware, OS, application software, companion devices.
- int_19h 8y ago
  Millions of people "get work done" on Windows, though. And, conversely, you only need to scan the comments here to see some about how they had to deal with OS issues on Macs.
  - bradknowles 8y ago
    Yeah, and millions of people in the world don’t have running water or any kind of heat in their homes, and those homes don’t have any insulation. And those homes might not even have three walls, much less four. Just because millions of people might live in abject poverty doesn’t mean that I should aspire to doing so.
- komali2 8y ago
  System wide clipboard? Interesting, what does that mean? I've never had issues copy/pasting.

w0utert 8y ago

>> The MacBook line is going through a dark age right now, where seemingly people who design them are not the same people that use them. That might be true, at least for some subset of MacBook Pro users, but it is also possible to have a slightly more optimistic view. Instead of being in a 'dark age' you could also see the current models as 'transitional', in the sense that the long-term goal is to have a MBP that is very powerful and thin and caters to all target audiences. Look at the very first MacBook Air for example, that was a pretty shitty laptop in almost every way, except for thinness. In fact, I don't think it improved on earlier Apple laptops in any other way. And it was ridiculously expensive to boot. But it did set a precedent: in terms of size, Apple laptops would from that point on be measured against the MBA, and technology just had to catch up, eventually resulting in the later MBA's. Which I actually think are one of the best laptop series Apple ever made. I don't disagree that for some people the current MBP line-up is a regression, even though I absolutely love mine and have no problems with it except its cost. And I consider myself relatively far towards the power-user demographic, using my laptop primarily for development and heavy compute loads. But my feeling is that the MBP we will see one or two generations from now will be much better and thin, and everyone will have forgotten about USB-A ports and keyboard design flaws.

jandrese 8y ago
Ultimately building ultra-thing requires design tradeoffs. If you can build a thin machine with a powerful processor, lots of ram, huge SSD, powerful graphics, long battery life, and big beautiful screen you could build a thicker laptop that's even more powerful and has better expansion options. You can do a lot with good design, but it's asking too much of Apple's engineers to break the laws of thermodynamics.
- w0utert 8y ago
  By that logic a laptop is never big enough, as you can always cram more and more into it, until you end up with a desktop workstation. The premise is that at some point the components you can fit in a thin and light laptop, are powerful enough for any use case people realistically expect to be able to use a laptop for. Obviously you can still make something even more powerful, but the people who care about these things are very likely to go for a workstation anyway. It has always been like this, but now it looks like we are almost at the point where CPU's and GPU's are becoming power-efficient enough that the law of diminishing returns says you actually can cram enough power in a thin and light laptop like the MBP to satisfy just about anyone who wouldn't get a desktop workstation anyway. Case in point: just have a look at gaming laptops. While you can still get ridiculous monstrosities that weigh 12 kg and run less than one hour on a single charge under load, the trend is thinner and lighter for this category as well.

jakobegger 8y ago

They actually do build a thick computer with lots of ports: The 2018 Mac mini. It's awesome. Thunderbolt, USB-C, USB-A, HDMI, Ethernet, Headphone .... it really has everything you need. It's not really portable, but if you're a Pro, and need all those ports, chances are that you work at a desk and don't actually need a portable Mac.

bobthepanda 8y ago
I don't know - I do quite like being able to swap between the office, working from home, working from a coffeeshop, and having the ability to deal with emergent emergencies anywhere with my 2015 MBP. A charging port, two USB-A, and two Thunderbolt is more than sufficient for my needs; the headphone jack is a nice touch. It's a shame that the MBP line went backwards in terms of functionality. If I wanted a gimped MBP I'd get an Air.
pkamb 8y ago
It also just came out, and for years this device did not exist / was woefully outdated. Glad to see that change.

coryfklein 8y ago

And they're already set up for this with their MacBook Air SKU. That product should be optimizing for thinness at all costs, while the MacBook Pro should be about functionality, usability, and power. Instead the MacBook Pro is essentially "the laptop with a larger screen".

intopieces 8y ago

>(bring back USB-A so that we can do our pro work without dongles please!) Serious question: what hardware are you using that requires dongles? I spent about $30 replacing the cables on all my devices with USB-C. I have never used a dongle. Is there pro hardware out there with USB-A cable permanently attached?

lokedhs 8y ago
USB thumbdrives?
- intopieces 8y ago
  Easily replaced with USB-C/USB-A dual interface if you need to interact with older hardware. I understand that not everyone wants to re-buy all their gear, but this a really cheap change for anyone who is already shelling out $2000 or more for a pro-level laptop. We are almost 3 years into the USB-C-only MacBook era, prices have dropped significantly on those peripherals.