7 ms·

In Norway we have 5 years of "reklamasjon" on products that are supposed to last considerably longer than two years, such as a laptop. It is sort of a governmen

In Norway we have 5 years of "reklamasjon" on products that are supposed to last considerably longer than two years, such as a laptop. It is sort of a government mandated warranty on top of the regular one. I have had 4 year and 11 months old stuff that I have gotten replaced or repaired free of charge. Wonder how products would have been designed if this was a thing globally (or at least in the top 3 biggest markets). Anyone else who thinks "a whole lot more durable and repairable" is a reasonable guess?

qubex 8y ago
I love Norway. Best friend is Norwegian and lives there, I never cease to be amazed by the level of common sense and decency that pervades everything I see and come in contact with.
Max_aaa 8y ago
In NZ there is the "Consumer Guarantees Act": https://www.consumerprotection.govt.nz/general-help/consumer-laws/consumer-guarantees-act/ https://www.consumerprotection.govt.nz/general-help/consumer... Which basically adds a government mandated warranty for goods and services sold to consumers (non-businesses).
- chris_wot 8y ago
  In Australia the CCL means that if Apple cause a problem like this, they have to repair the product. There's a good chance that they might get a 4 year old Macbook Air and have to fix it for this issue.
  - stephen_g 8y ago
    Apple tend to be pretty good at that anyway. They gave me the top-spec mid-2015 MacBook Pro I'm writing this comment on for free when the graphics chip in my 2011 MacBook died a couple of times, before there was even an official replacement program. The consumer law only guarantees for two years (although I think there is some provision for extra "expected life" of a product, can't remember exactly), and I didn't have Apple Care, so they didn't have to do that.
    - chris_wot 8y ago
      Sure, but here in Australia they can't limit the warranty like that. They tried this and got a massive fine. Hence AppleCare in Australia is different to what you get in the U.S. because we are protected by law.
gst 8y ago
That's probably one of the reasons why the top spec 13" model (Touch Bar and Touch ID 2.3GHz Quad-Core Processor 512GB Storage) costs kr 22 190,00 = $2581 in Norway, while I get the same model for $1999 in the United States. I'd rather have the choice to decide myself if and how much I want to spend for warranty (e.g., AppleCare) than having the government force me to indirectly pay for a warranty that I might not need or want.
- cjg_ 8y ago
  The difference is well explained by the 25% VAT applied in Norway.
- martinald 8y ago
  VAT is 25% in Norway so that makes $500 of the difference. Put in a 3% margin for forex swings and you are pretty much at the difference.
  - mgolawala 8y ago
    Not to mention that in Norway the VAT is included in the price, whereas in the U.S. the Sales Tax needs to be added on top. For a fairer comparison, you would actually need to add the appropriate sales tax for your state. That wont make up all of the the 25% difference but could easily add 7 to 9% to the cost of the U.S. price.
    - martinald 8y ago
      Keep in mind though VAT is very different to sales tax. If it's a b2b purchase you will almost always get VAT refunded on the purchase by the government, which afiak never happens in the US on sales tax. So it is actually cheaper in the EU/EEA to get a laptop as a business (as you will reclaim the VAT in Europe but you wouldn't be able to reclaim the sales tax in the US).
- jvzr 8y ago
  Including VAT? Remember that most (if not all) European, public-facing prices already include VAT. Not sure for Norway, but I'd think they do too.
abtinf 8y ago
How does the price of electronics compare to countries without similar rules?
- Retra 8y ago
  More importantly, how do the externalities stack up?
  - abtinf 8y ago
    I was taught about externalities during my econ undergrad and thought it was a sensible idea -- when considering a decision, the full context should be taken into account, including the consequences that aren't borne by the decision maker and we should be explicit that we are trying to maximize human flourishing. Yet I found that discussion of externalities seemed biased to only focus on the negative consequences, instead of taking into account both the positives and negatives. For example, as a negative externality, the health consequences of managing e-waste are potentially serious. Electronics with shorter useful life might create more e-waste than those with a longer life. At the same time, a positive externality of less expensive goods is increased demand for other, higher value goods and services - which might allow those managing e-waste to move into other fields of work and create an incentive to increase safety/automation/productivity for the remaining e-waste workers. I know very little about e-waste and am not qualified to take a position. I am simply saying that it would be incredibly valuable if the people who did take positions explained the full context of how they came to their view, including presenting the best arguments against their position with a clear explanation of why those arguments aren't persuasive.
- Chernobog 8y ago
  My impression (as a Norwegian): - For computer parts, the price without VAT is quite similar to US prices. But our VAT is 25%, so it makes a huge difference. - For whole computers, you can save a lot buying in the US, but once you add extra warranties such as Apple Care the price difference is not worth it any more. We are one of the countries where people have the most disposable income in the world, so that makes it bearable for those cases where the prices are notably higher.
oneplane 8y ago
We have something similar in The Netherlands. Had a 2015 13" battery replaced that started bulging a few months ago, for free, within a few days. The battery was functioning fine, it didn't have many cycles, yet bulged anyway (all the cells did) to the point the bottom started to pop open. While I wouldn't have a problem replacing this battery myself with an iFixit kit or reviewed eBay stuff, after some measurements and checking this really had to be a manufacturing issue; so up to Apple to take care of (and they did).
smileysteve 8y ago
> we have 5 years of "reklamasjon" on products that are supposed to last considerably longer than two years, such as a laptop. I find that curious. If you had asked me at any time between 1990 and 2012 if I expected that a laptop would be up to par performance without upgrades after 2 years, I would doubt it, much less 5. It seems like many manufacturers are stopping updates after 2 years, and with the LIPO battery (whether, a laptop or a phone) there are expected chemical degradations over that time. In the U.S. having warranty insurance (double the apple 1 year warranty) is a common consumer protection provided by credit cards.
- addicted 8y ago
  You’re shooting down a straw man here. No one in the 1990s and 2000s expected their laptops to be up to par in terms of performance beyond a few years. And I’m pretty sure the OP isn’t suggesting that’s the case in Norway. What they are suggesting is that the same laptop would work for 5 years, even if it’s performance was not equivalent to its contemporaries. However, they would continue to be good at receiving email, browsing the web, etc. This isn’t even that remarkable. Apple used to update their OSes every few years, and their newest OS would run on laptops that ran at least a couple of generations older OSes. IOW, at least 4-6 year old laptops. This was pretty much the expectation people held.
  - smileysteve 8y ago
    4-6 years and still browsing the web seems unlikely. Take two devices I purchased in early 2013, an Ipad Mini 1st gen 8gb and a Nexus 7. Both were out of update range by 2016 and both struggle to browse "simple" web pages or by the same time. With top of the line, first of their generation full x86 laptops; 5 years seems unlikely, especially during the web growth periods and Moore's law from 1995-2005 -- to even be able to reliably and securely run web pages.
    - PhasmaFelis 8y ago
      The early 2010s for mobile devices was a lot like the '90s for PCs, true. The iPhone had blown the doors off everyone's notions of what a phone could do, and the tech was advancing so fast that a cutting-edge device could be obsolete in two years. (On the '90s PC side, I suspect that Doom and the ensuing explosion of 3D games kicked things off.) Don't mistake that for the default state of computing technology. My daily-use laptop is a 2010 MacBook Pro, and it's only started feeling slow in the last couple of years. Even now, it's fine for light web browsing and gaming.
epx 8y ago
And 5 years is not that much, I had to replace a washing machine of 8.5 years because LG doesn't supply a motherboard, so a perfectly good and revised machine could go to the trash (donated it to some blue collar folks that will fix the board or replace by a salvaged one, I don't have a backyard to tinker with this unfortunately)
- hmottestad 8y ago
  Buy a Miele one. Our old landlord got a technician to replace the control panel in the 20+ year old one we had.
52-6F-62 8y ago
I wish Canada had something like this. Recently had a Dell XPS tower die just over a year into owning it. The Dell standard warranty? 1 year. Haha... I understand how computers work. I've tried just about everything but replacing the RAM, motherboard (would require a new case-- those Dell cases just...anyone who's had one will know— and/or new processor...), and processor and still get perfect diagnostics results. But every time I attempt to boot it, it just freezes on the damned Dell logo...

qubex 8y ago

I love Norway. Best friend is Norwegian and lives there, I never cease to be amazed by the level of common sense and decency that pervades everything I see and come in contact with.

Max_aaa 8y ago

In NZ there is the "Consumer Guarantees Act": https://www.consumerprotection.govt.nz/general-help/consumer-laws/consumer-guarantees-act/ https://www.consumerprotection.govt.nz/general-help/consumer... Which basically adds a government mandated warranty for goods and services sold to consumers (non-businesses).

chris_wot 8y ago
In Australia the CCL means that if Apple cause a problem like this, they have to repair the product. There's a good chance that they might get a 4 year old Macbook Air and have to fix it for this issue.
- stephen_g 8y ago
  Apple tend to be pretty good at that anyway. They gave me the top-spec mid-2015 MacBook Pro I'm writing this comment on for free when the graphics chip in my 2011 MacBook died a couple of times, before there was even an official replacement program. The consumer law only guarantees for two years (although I think there is some provision for extra "expected life" of a product, can't remember exactly), and I didn't have Apple Care, so they didn't have to do that.
  - chris_wot 8y ago
    Sure, but here in Australia they can't limit the warranty like that. They tried this and got a massive fine. Hence AppleCare in Australia is different to what you get in the U.S. because we are protected by law.

gst 8y ago

That's probably one of the reasons why the top spec 13" model (Touch Bar and Touch ID 2.3GHz Quad-Core Processor 512GB Storage) costs kr 22 190,00 = $2581 in Norway, while I get the same model for $1999 in the United States. I'd rather have the choice to decide myself if and how much I want to spend for warranty (e.g., AppleCare) than having the government force me to indirectly pay for a warranty that I might not need or want.

cjg_ 8y ago
The difference is well explained by the 25% VAT applied in Norway.
martinald 8y ago
VAT is 25% in Norway so that makes $500 of the difference. Put in a 3% margin for forex swings and you are pretty much at the difference.
- mgolawala 8y ago
  Not to mention that in Norway the VAT is included in the price, whereas in the U.S. the Sales Tax needs to be added on top. For a fairer comparison, you would actually need to add the appropriate sales tax for your state. That wont make up all of the the 25% difference but could easily add 7 to 9% to the cost of the U.S. price.
  - martinald 8y ago
    Keep in mind though VAT is very different to sales tax. If it's a b2b purchase you will almost always get VAT refunded on the purchase by the government, which afiak never happens in the US on sales tax. So it is actually cheaper in the EU/EEA to get a laptop as a business (as you will reclaim the VAT in Europe but you wouldn't be able to reclaim the sales tax in the US).
jvzr 8y ago
Including VAT? Remember that most (if not all) European, public-facing prices already include VAT. Not sure for Norway, but I'd think they do too.

abtinf 8y ago

How does the price of electronics compare to countries without similar rules?

Retra 8y ago
More importantly, how do the externalities stack up?
- abtinf 8y ago
  I was taught about externalities during my econ undergrad and thought it was a sensible idea -- when considering a decision, the full context should be taken into account, including the consequences that aren't borne by the decision maker and we should be explicit that we are trying to maximize human flourishing. Yet I found that discussion of externalities seemed biased to only focus on the negative consequences, instead of taking into account both the positives and negatives. For example, as a negative externality, the health consequences of managing e-waste are potentially serious. Electronics with shorter useful life might create more e-waste than those with a longer life. At the same time, a positive externality of less expensive goods is increased demand for other, higher value goods and services - which might allow those managing e-waste to move into other fields of work and create an incentive to increase safety/automation/productivity for the remaining e-waste workers. I know very little about e-waste and am not qualified to take a position. I am simply saying that it would be incredibly valuable if the people who did take positions explained the full context of how they came to their view, including presenting the best arguments against their position with a clear explanation of why those arguments aren't persuasive.
Chernobog 8y ago
My impression (as a Norwegian): - For computer parts, the price without VAT is quite similar to US prices. But our VAT is 25%, so it makes a huge difference. - For whole computers, you can save a lot buying in the US, but once you add extra warranties such as Apple Care the price difference is not worth it any more. We are one of the countries where people have the most disposable income in the world, so that makes it bearable for those cases where the prices are notably higher.

oneplane 8y ago

We have something similar in The Netherlands. Had a 2015 13" battery replaced that started bulging a few months ago, for free, within a few days. The battery was functioning fine, it didn't have many cycles, yet bulged anyway (all the cells did) to the point the bottom started to pop open. While I wouldn't have a problem replacing this battery myself with an iFixit kit or reviewed eBay stuff, after some measurements and checking this really had to be a manufacturing issue; so up to Apple to take care of (and they did).

smileysteve 8y ago

> we have 5 years of "reklamasjon" on products that are supposed to last considerably longer than two years, such as a laptop. I find that curious. If you had asked me at any time between 1990 and 2012 if I expected that a laptop would be up to par performance without upgrades after 2 years, I would doubt it, much less 5. It seems like many manufacturers are stopping updates after 2 years, and with the LIPO battery (whether, a laptop or a phone) there are expected chemical degradations over that time. In the U.S. having warranty insurance (double the apple 1 year warranty) is a common consumer protection provided by credit cards.

addicted 8y ago
You’re shooting down a straw man here. No one in the 1990s and 2000s expected their laptops to be up to par in terms of performance beyond a few years. And I’m pretty sure the OP isn’t suggesting that’s the case in Norway. What they are suggesting is that the same laptop would work for 5 years, even if it’s performance was not equivalent to its contemporaries. However, they would continue to be good at receiving email, browsing the web, etc. This isn’t even that remarkable. Apple used to update their OSes every few years, and their newest OS would run on laptops that ran at least a couple of generations older OSes. IOW, at least 4-6 year old laptops. This was pretty much the expectation people held.
- smileysteve 8y ago
  4-6 years and still browsing the web seems unlikely. Take two devices I purchased in early 2013, an Ipad Mini 1st gen 8gb and a Nexus 7. Both were out of update range by 2016 and both struggle to browse "simple" web pages or by the same time. With top of the line, first of their generation full x86 laptops; 5 years seems unlikely, especially during the web growth periods and Moore's law from 1995-2005 -- to even be able to reliably and securely run web pages.
  - PhasmaFelis 8y ago
    The early 2010s for mobile devices was a lot like the '90s for PCs, true. The iPhone had blown the doors off everyone's notions of what a phone could do, and the tech was advancing so fast that a cutting-edge device could be obsolete in two years. (On the '90s PC side, I suspect that Doom and the ensuing explosion of 3D games kicked things off.) Don't mistake that for the default state of computing technology. My daily-use laptop is a 2010 MacBook Pro, and it's only started feeling slow in the last couple of years. Even now, it's fine for light web browsing and gaming.

epx 8y ago

And 5 years is not that much, I had to replace a washing machine of 8.5 years because LG doesn't supply a motherboard, so a perfectly good and revised machine could go to the trash (donated it to some blue collar folks that will fix the board or replace by a salvaged one, I don't have a backyard to tinker with this unfortunately)

hmottestad 8y ago
Buy a Miele one. Our old landlord got a technician to replace the control panel in the 20+ year old one we had.

52-6F-62 8y ago

I wish Canada had something like this. Recently had a Dell XPS tower die just over a year into owning it. The Dell standard warranty? 1 year. Haha... I understand how computers work. I've tried just about everything but replacing the RAM, motherboard (would require a new case-- those Dell cases just...anyone who's had one will know— and/or new processor...), and processor and still get perfect diagnostics results. But every time I attempt to boot it, it just freezes on the damned Dell logo...