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>I couldn't understand the fascination with the integrated environments though. The only thing I can recommend it watching some Alan Kay videos or Pharo demos.

>I couldn't understand the fascination with the integrated environments though. The only thing I can recommend it watching some Alan Kay videos or Pharo demos. Windows and Linux UI conditioned everyone to think of UI as a crutch for incompetent users, rather than a tool useful in its own right. This cannot be undone in a single reply, no matter how elaborate it will be. Traditional tools are definitely more polished at the moment, but they are exactly that - traditional, shaped by historic accidents, rather than design. Software development is currently running on a set of highly refined steam engines. For example, what are the chances that a simulation of a teletype is the best interface for interacting with an operating system? What are the chances that the best conceptual model for a unit of information is manila folder or a phone book ("files", "directories"). Also, IDE came to mean "bloated monolith for editing and compiling code". But it should really mean that application interface is the development tool. Tools that are integrated into OS and applications.

tudelo 8y ago
Any good Pharo demos that you can recommend?
- scroot 8y ago
  Gtoolkit [1] is a cutting-edge example of what's possible. I say "cutting edge" because it relies upon a dev version of Bloc, which is the new graphics system being developed for future versions of Pharo. Any sluggishness you experience with Gtoolkit, by the way, is because Bloc is being hosted in Morphic (the current graphics system) temporarily. [1] http://gtoolkit.com http://gtoolkit.com
- gambler 8y ago
  Depends on how much you know about SmallTalk. Here is a good one: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=baxtyeFVn3w https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=baxtyeFVn3w
  - deleted 8y ago
    [deleted]
- 4thaccount 8y ago
  There is a ProfStef object that you can send a message to (can't remember the message, maybe "go") which runs through a decent tutorial. After that I'd download one of the books and start going through that. I'm only a novice (have read maybe 1/2 of a book and played around in the IDE a bit). Pharo is really cool, but my programming needs are scientific in nature where I need something closer to Julia where there is a lot of builtin support for numerical work. Someone did write a numerical methods book in Pharo which was neat, but it is still lacking the libraries I need.
drinfinity 8y ago
What the Smalltalk and apparently now the Pharo people don't seem to understand is that the entire OS is the IDE, "the image". My OS and all of its rules, tools and configuration, the UNIX philosophy, the POSIX standard, all of its history and convention: _that_ is my dev environment and it's as LIVE as anything can be. Not some one-off unicorn IDE - no matter how awesome it is, sorry guys. My entire toolchain in all of its diversity is one big living ecosystem. That is not, as you eloquently hinted at, a bunch of refined steam engines. It is maglev-level awesomeness. Some pointy-clicky IDE where you can inspect objects with trivial properties is not impressive. It was in the 90s, but now now. Ironically Pharo itself, to me, evokes the admittedly beautiful image of a bunch of refined steam engines. A beautiful thing of the past. Impressive, but obsolete - not unlike France itself. You have to interact with dozens of systems for even the simplest applications now. Databases, HTTP APIs, knowledge systems, OS'es, all kinds of IoT and machinery, all of which have their own standards, their own philosophies, their own tools, their own way of doing things. None of this would ever work if one tool decides it has the Truth and all other should conform to it. Without the UNIX philosophy none of this would even get off the ground. Because that is wat Pharo is, a tool, _inside_ an already living ecosystem. That is exactly why you get programmers asking, why can't I use my tools, why can't I use the "shell", do this do that.. This tool does not fit the UNIX mindset: it's just another tool, but it pretends to be an entire ecosystem that handles everything. An OS inside an OS. This does not make sense to anyone (but the Smalltalk people apparently). Also, as an aside, that is exactly why emacs sucks (take that HN!!). For some reason some people think programming is hard because you have to create some classes and struggle with basic syntax. Inspecting trivial object and deciding the value of its sole attribute is "2" or "A" is not what makes our work hard. And yes, UI _is_ a crutch. Only visual tasks need visual interfaces, think Photoshop. Visual UIs slow you down, that's just a physical fact - how fast is you hand? - and it is totally reasonable for new/incompetent users and/or users that perform visual tasks, but programming is not a visual task. Programmers think in abstractions, in symbols. GUIs have their place to be sure, without autocomplete I would be useless, so there's that, but beyond that, nope, useless crutch for incompetent users. Take that, society. ~Angry Engineer
- goatlover 8y ago
  > Without the UNIX philosophy none of this would even get off the ground. So the UNIX philosophy was the only possible way computing could have gone to result in a diverse set of systems that communicate with each other? Is there some sort of CS proof of this claim? Or was it just how history played out? > For some reason some people think programming is hard because you have to create some classes and struggle with basic syntax. Inspecting trivial object and deciding the value of its sole attribute is "2" or "A" is not what makes our work hard. Alan Kay and some others have thought programming would be more productive if it took place at a higher level than manipulating text and files. You might not agree with that, but the reason you have such good tools for text and file manipulation is because the Unix way prevailed. Magnitudes more effort has been poured into making that tooling than alternative approaches. > Visual UIs slow you down, that's just a physical fact - how fast is you hand? - and it is totally reasonable for new/incompetent users and/or users that perform visual tasks, but programming is not a visual task. Well, ask someone with a lot of VB or Smalltalk experience how much the environment slows them down in comparison. Because you often hear the opposite. > GUIs have their place to be sure, without autocomplete I would be useless, so there's that, but beyond that, nope, useless crutch for incompetent users I guess debuggers, refactoring and class browsers aren't useful, then. > Impressive, but obsolete - not unlike France itself. LOL, wat?

tudelo 8y ago

Any good Pharo demos that you can recommend?

scroot 8y ago
Gtoolkit [1] is a cutting-edge example of what's possible. I say "cutting edge" because it relies upon a dev version of Bloc, which is the new graphics system being developed for future versions of Pharo. Any sluggishness you experience with Gtoolkit, by the way, is because Bloc is being hosted in Morphic (the current graphics system) temporarily. [1] http://gtoolkit.com http://gtoolkit.com
gambler 8y ago
Depends on how much you know about SmallTalk. Here is a good one: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=baxtyeFVn3w https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=baxtyeFVn3w
- deleted 8y ago
  [deleted]
4thaccount 8y ago
There is a ProfStef object that you can send a message to (can't remember the message, maybe "go") which runs through a decent tutorial. After that I'd download one of the books and start going through that. I'm only a novice (have read maybe 1/2 of a book and played around in the IDE a bit). Pharo is really cool, but my programming needs are scientific in nature where I need something closer to Julia where there is a lot of builtin support for numerical work. Someone did write a numerical methods book in Pharo which was neat, but it is still lacking the libraries I need.

drinfinity 8y ago

What the Smalltalk and apparently now the Pharo people don't seem to understand is that the entire OS is the IDE, "the image". My OS and all of its rules, tools and configuration, the UNIX philosophy, the POSIX standard, all of its history and convention: _that_ is my dev environment and it's as LIVE as anything can be. Not some one-off unicorn IDE - no matter how awesome it is, sorry guys. My entire toolchain in all of its diversity is one big living ecosystem. That is not, as you eloquently hinted at, a bunch of refined steam engines. It is maglev-level awesomeness. Some pointy-clicky IDE where you can inspect objects with trivial properties is not impressive. It was in the 90s, but now now. Ironically Pharo itself, to me, evokes the admittedly beautiful image of a bunch of refined steam engines. A beautiful thing of the past. Impressive, but obsolete - not unlike France itself. You have to interact with dozens of systems for even the simplest applications now. Databases, HTTP APIs, knowledge systems, OS'es, all kinds of IoT and machinery, all of which have their own standards, their own philosophies, their own tools, their own way of doing things. None of this would ever work if one tool decides it has the Truth and all other should conform to it. Without the UNIX philosophy none of this would even get off the ground. Because that is wat Pharo is, a tool, _inside_ an already living ecosystem. That is exactly why you get programmers asking, why can't I use my tools, why can't I use the "shell", do this do that.. This tool does not fit the UNIX mindset: it's just another tool, but it pretends to be an entire ecosystem that handles everything. An OS inside an OS. This does not make sense to anyone (but the Smalltalk people apparently). Also, as an aside, that is exactly why emacs sucks (take that HN!!). For some reason some people think programming is hard because you have to create some classes and struggle with basic syntax. Inspecting trivial object and deciding the value of its sole attribute is "2" or "A" is not what makes our work hard. And yes, UI _is_ a crutch. Only visual tasks need visual interfaces, think Photoshop. Visual UIs slow you down, that's just a physical fact - how fast is you hand? - and it is totally reasonable for new/incompetent users and/or users that perform visual tasks, but programming is not a visual task. Programmers think in abstractions, in symbols. GUIs have their place to be sure, without autocomplete I would be useless, so there's that, but beyond that, nope, useless crutch for incompetent users. Take that, society. ~Angry Engineer

goatlover 8y ago
> Without the UNIX philosophy none of this would even get off the ground. So the UNIX philosophy was the only possible way computing could have gone to result in a diverse set of systems that communicate with each other? Is there some sort of CS proof of this claim? Or was it just how history played out? > For some reason some people think programming is hard because you have to create some classes and struggle with basic syntax. Inspecting trivial object and deciding the value of its sole attribute is "2" or "A" is not what makes our work hard. Alan Kay and some others have thought programming would be more productive if it took place at a higher level than manipulating text and files. You might not agree with that, but the reason you have such good tools for text and file manipulation is because the Unix way prevailed. Magnitudes more effort has been poured into making that tooling than alternative approaches. > Visual UIs slow you down, that's just a physical fact - how fast is you hand? - and it is totally reasonable for new/incompetent users and/or users that perform visual tasks, but programming is not a visual task. Well, ask someone with a lot of VB or Smalltalk experience how much the environment slows them down in comparison. Because you often hear the opposite. > GUIs have their place to be sure, without autocomplete I would be useless, so there's that, but beyond that, nope, useless crutch for incompetent users I guess debuggers, refactoring and class browsers aren't useful, then. > Impressive, but obsolete - not unlike France itself. LOL, wat?