14 ms·

I always hated how Tesla used gas savings as part of "how cheap" their cars were. It felt dishonest. Just give me the damned msrp without tax credits or gas sav

I always hated how Tesla used gas savings as part of "how cheap" their cars were. It felt dishonest. Just give me the damned msrp without tax credits or gas savings.

potatochup 8y ago
I feel like that about America in general. Sales Tax is never included, or they display the price assuming a auto pay discount or some other such 'discount'. Don't get me started on tipping.
- rorykoehler 8y ago
  Couldn't agree more. I want to know how much money I need to part with today without the mental gymnastics. They do the same in restaurants here in Singapore. List price... then on the bill you get tax and service charge added.
  - pfranz 8y ago
    I know the US has an array of weirdly regulated local dealership laws that really mess up the buying market. What is buying a car like in the rest of the world? Similarly, a few years ago I went with my mom to buy a basic necklace chain for my sister. We went into a few department stores and my brain kind of melted at the mental gymnastics required. Our budget going in was like $30-50 for example. The sticker price would be $80, but the whole store was 40% off! And this rack was an additional 20% off today only! Trying to compare prices between different stores was really annoying and my mom pointed out this was normal. I think the older generation like the gamesmanship of it and younger people are really turned off by the whole idea.
    - masonic 8y ago
      The older generation is probably better at doing basic arithmetic in one's head. 80 x .6 x .8 =
      - pfranz 8y ago
        I wanted to say this reminded me of those nonsensical word-problems given in school.
    - martin_a 8y ago
      > What is buying a car like in the rest of the world? For Germany: Go to a dealer, price including all taxes etc. will be listed on the car. Talk to them and you can typically get a little bit off, even some solid discount if models are about to change or whatever. But you will not pay any more than stated (if you don't get tricked into some dubious credit).
- masonic 8y ago
  I don't understand. Posted gasoline prices are always inclusive of state and local taxes in every state I've driven.
mdeeks 8y ago
Yeah it is somewhat misleading, though they do clearly show the true purchase price vs the "Savings price" on the final page after you configure the car. The first few pages sort of bait you in to thinking it's cheaper though. In the end, I thought their pricing and buying process was a breath of fresh air compared to my experience with my Audi. By the time I walked out of the Audi dealership I had spent about $6k more than the original quoted price they gave me on the floor. I had about 3 pages of papers that look like excel sheets "explaining" it all. Tesla gave us a half page sheet with maybe 6 line items that clearly explains the costs. The gas savings really do add up though. One of my previous comments I did a rough TCO between the Model 3 and my Audi A4 and found we saved about $1500 a year in fuel costs. After 5 years the car ended up being about $10k cheaper than my Audi despite it having a higher sticker price
- semi-extrinsic 8y ago
  > After 5 years the car ended up being about $10k cheaper than my Audi despite it having a higher sticker price. This would imply a really huge running cost on the Audi over the Tesla in addition to gas - what's that cost? Assuming it's a new car, I assume repairs etc are covered under warranty?
  - mdeeks 8y ago
    Much of the savings was from rebate/tax credit programs. I didn't factor in maintenance at all since they are unknowns. My original comment with more details is here: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=18773680 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=18773680 Also my Audi doesn't have any Autopilot equivalent so I probably should have left that additional $5k out of the cost of the Model 3.
    - semi-extrinsic 8y ago
      Ah, so if you had compared the Model 3 to a similar-segment petrol car such as the Mazda 3 (4-door), it would be the other way around and the petrol car would come out $10k cheaper in TCO. The Audi A4 is only that expensive because it's a premium segment sedan, the Model 3 is (by design!) not a premium segment sedan. To clarify, I think you're not comparing "electric car" with "petrol car", you're comparing it with "petrol car for which I happened to pay a $20k premium because it's a status symbol".
pfranz 8y ago
I dunno how in-your-face Tesla is about it, but when buying gas cars I care more about TCO than I do about sticker price (rarely does the cost of gas make that much of a difference, especially within the same class of cars). My wife had an older mini cooper that ran decently well, but the cost of replacing tires (deciding between run flat or going with normal tires without a spare), brakes, and other repairs really sucked as the car became less reliable.

I always hated how Tesla used gas savings as part of "how cheap" their cars were. It felt dishonest. Just give me the damned msrp without tax credits or gas savings.

potatochup 8y ago

I feel like that about America in general. Sales Tax is never included, or they display the price assuming a auto pay discount or some other such 'discount'. Don't get me started on tipping.

rorykoehler 8y ago
Couldn't agree more. I want to know how much money I need to part with today without the mental gymnastics. They do the same in restaurants here in Singapore. List price... then on the bill you get tax and service charge added.
- pfranz 8y ago
  I know the US has an array of weirdly regulated local dealership laws that really mess up the buying market. What is buying a car like in the rest of the world? Similarly, a few years ago I went with my mom to buy a basic necklace chain for my sister. We went into a few department stores and my brain kind of melted at the mental gymnastics required. Our budget going in was like $30-50 for example. The sticker price would be $80, but the whole store was 40% off! And this rack was an additional 20% off today only! Trying to compare prices between different stores was really annoying and my mom pointed out this was normal. I think the older generation like the gamesmanship of it and younger people are really turned off by the whole idea.
  - masonic 8y ago
    The older generation is probably better at doing basic arithmetic in one's head. 80 x .6 x .8 =
    - pfranz 8y ago
      I wanted to say this reminded me of those nonsensical word-problems given in school.
  - martin_a 8y ago
    > What is buying a car like in the rest of the world? For Germany: Go to a dealer, price including all taxes etc. will be listed on the car. Talk to them and you can typically get a little bit off, even some solid discount if models are about to change or whatever. But you will not pay any more than stated (if you don't get tricked into some dubious credit).
masonic 8y ago
I don't understand. Posted gasoline prices are always inclusive of state and local taxes in every state I've driven.

mdeeks 8y ago

Yeah it is somewhat misleading, though they do clearly show the true purchase price vs the "Savings price" on the final page after you configure the car. The first few pages sort of bait you in to thinking it's cheaper though. In the end, I thought their pricing and buying process was a breath of fresh air compared to my experience with my Audi. By the time I walked out of the Audi dealership I had spent about $6k more than the original quoted price they gave me on the floor. I had about 3 pages of papers that look like excel sheets "explaining" it all. Tesla gave us a half page sheet with maybe 6 line items that clearly explains the costs. The gas savings really do add up though. One of my previous comments I did a rough TCO between the Model 3 and my Audi A4 and found we saved about $1500 a year in fuel costs. After 5 years the car ended up being about $10k cheaper than my Audi despite it having a higher sticker price

semi-extrinsic 8y ago
> After 5 years the car ended up being about $10k cheaper than my Audi despite it having a higher sticker price. This would imply a really huge running cost on the Audi over the Tesla in addition to gas - what's that cost? Assuming it's a new car, I assume repairs etc are covered under warranty?
- mdeeks 8y ago
  Much of the savings was from rebate/tax credit programs. I didn't factor in maintenance at all since they are unknowns. My original comment with more details is here: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=18773680 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=18773680 Also my Audi doesn't have any Autopilot equivalent so I probably should have left that additional $5k out of the cost of the Model 3.
  - semi-extrinsic 8y ago
    Ah, so if you had compared the Model 3 to a similar-segment petrol car such as the Mazda 3 (4-door), it would be the other way around and the petrol car would come out $10k cheaper in TCO. The Audi A4 is only that expensive because it's a premium segment sedan, the Model 3 is (by design!) not a premium segment sedan. To clarify, I think you're not comparing "electric car" with "petrol car", you're comparing it with "petrol car for which I happened to pay a $20k premium because it's a status symbol".

pfranz 8y ago

I dunno how in-your-face Tesla is about it, but when buying gas cars I care more about TCO than I do about sticker price (rarely does the cost of gas make that much of a difference, especially within the same class of cars). My wife had an older mini cooper that ran decently well, but the cost of replacing tires (deciding between run flat or going with normal tires without a spare), brakes, and other repairs really sucked as the car became less reliable.