71 ms·

Egypt's Aswan Damn

66 points by paulorlando 8y ago

MarsAscendant 8y ago
Systemantics, the book the article is based on, sounds like a good addition to a system designer's library. Any reviews from people who've read it?
- wglb 8y ago
  See my comment for a very short one.
  - MarsAscendant 8y ago
    Thanks. I like what you named the syndrome.
- danielvf 8y ago
  It’s an extremely good book. Not only useful to a system designer, but anyone who ever interacts with bureaucracies, or who works in organizations with more than ten people.
  - MarsAscendant 8y ago
    Thank you.
  - dullroar 8y ago
    I concur - "Systemantics" (now "The Systems Bible") is an excellent book. I had a boss turn me onto it in the 1980s, and to this day I still quote from it, and re-read it about once a decade just to keep the lessons fresh.
    - paulorlando 8y ago
      It is a great book.
- arethuza 8y ago
  Its wikipedia page does make it look rather good: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Systemantics https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Systemantics
- smacktoward 8y ago
  I've read it, and own a copy. It's very good. There are bits you can argue with, and some of the examples used (like the one cited here) are a little too just-so, but it is absolutely a book that will make you think. And it's funny too, which is nice. (If you want to pick it up, be aware that in its most current printing the title changed from Systemantics to The Systems Bible: https://www.amazon.com/Systems-Bible-Beginners-Guide-Large/dp/0961825170 https://www.amazon.com/Systems-Bible-Beginners-Guide-Large/d...)
- paulorlando 8y ago
  It is a really good book (apart from the exception I had with the Aswan Dam section). Concise and funny. Something you want on your reference shelf when studying systems.
wglb 8y ago
While the author makes good points about that aspect of the book, it is nonetheless a book worth the read in today's world. I have seen this many times throughout the career and I call it the "The thing i built does WHAT??" syndrome.
pjc50 8y ago
I vaguely remembered that this was the first of a number of notorious World Bank dam projects, so went googling; it turns out to be geopolitically even stranger: https://adst.org/2016/06/dont-give-dam-feud-financing-aswan-high-dam/ https://adst.org/2016/06/dont-give-dam-feud-financing-aswan-...
soniman 8y ago
Aswan Dam also lead to the prevalence of schistosomiasis, or bilharzia. Kind of a big unintended consequence.
- swiftcoder 8y ago
  Interestingly, Wikipedia cites an EPA study as saying that it did not in fact increase the incidence of bilharzia. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aswan_Dam#Health https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aswan_Dam#Health
JackFr 8y ago
While I don't don't doubt the value of the book overall, I appreciate the blogger's skepticism. When the story seems too perfect to be true, it most likely isn't. I find the same thing often in Malcolm Gladwell -- the thesis or a close variant of it is true, but the anecdotes are too pat and perfect.
- delinka 8y ago
  >When the story seems too perfect to be true, it most likely isn't [true]. I was expecting to read >When the story seems too perfect to be true, it most likely isn't [too perfect]. I only comment in case someone else makes my mistake.
- paulorlando 8y ago
  Yes, that "too perfect" description is what made me look into the Aswan Dam situation after reading Systemantics. But I happened to have time to do just that. Most of what we read/see/hear we don't have time to assess deeply (and even if we did, we might only scratch the surface of deeper knowledge). An enduring problem.
carlob 8y ago
There is also the whole question of salinization. I highly recommend Cadillac Desert
benj111 8y ago
Ok fag packet out. Aswan dam production: 10000gwh [1] Area of Egyptian farmland 3000000 ha [2] Energy input for fertilising ha of wheat: 3000kwh [3] (it could be 47% of this?, but then theres 3 harvests a year...) =9000 gwh So the figure seems plausible? [1] https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aswan_Dam https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aswan_Dam [2] http://www.fao.org/docrep/v9978e/v9978e0e.htm http://www.fao.org/docrep/v9978e/v9978e0e.htm [3] https://www.researchgate.net/publication/279037757_Energy_requirements_and_economic_analysis_of_wheat_rice_and_barley_production_in_Australia https://www.researchgate.net/publication/279037757_Energy_re...

66 points by paulorlando 8y ago

Systemantics, the book the article is based on, sounds like a good addition to a system designer's library. Any reviews from people who've read it?

wglb 8y ago
See my comment for a very short one.
- MarsAscendant 8y ago
  Thanks. I like what you named the syndrome.
danielvf 8y ago
It’s an extremely good book. Not only useful to a system designer, but anyone who ever interacts with bureaucracies, or who works in organizations with more than ten people.
- MarsAscendant 8y ago
  Thank you.
- dullroar 8y ago
  I concur - "Systemantics" (now "The Systems Bible") is an excellent book. I had a boss turn me onto it in the 1980s, and to this day I still quote from it, and re-read it about once a decade just to keep the lessons fresh.
  - paulorlando 8y ago
    It is a great book.
arethuza 8y ago
Its wikipedia page does make it look rather good: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Systemantics https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Systemantics
smacktoward 8y ago
I've read it, and own a copy. It's very good. There are bits you can argue with, and some of the examples used (like the one cited here) are a little too just-so, but it is absolutely a book that will make you think. And it's funny too, which is nice. (If you want to pick it up, be aware that in its most current printing the title changed from Systemantics to The Systems Bible: https://www.amazon.com/Systems-Bible-Beginners-Guide-Large/dp/0961825170 https://www.amazon.com/Systems-Bible-Beginners-Guide-Large/d...)
paulorlando 8y ago
It is a really good book (apart from the exception I had with the Aswan Dam section). Concise and funny. Something you want on your reference shelf when studying systems.

wglb 8y ago

While the author makes good points about that aspect of the book, it is nonetheless a book worth the read in today's world. I have seen this many times throughout the career and I call it the "The thing i built does WHAT??" syndrome.

pjc50 8y ago

I vaguely remembered that this was the first of a number of notorious World Bank dam projects, so went googling; it turns out to be geopolitically even stranger: https://adst.org/2016/06/dont-give-dam-feud-financing-aswan-high-dam/ https://adst.org/2016/06/dont-give-dam-feud-financing-aswan-...

soniman 8y ago

Aswan Dam also lead to the prevalence of schistosomiasis, or bilharzia. Kind of a big unintended consequence.

swiftcoder 8y ago
Interestingly, Wikipedia cites an EPA study as saying that it did not in fact increase the incidence of bilharzia. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aswan_Dam#Health https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aswan_Dam#Health

JackFr 8y ago

While I don't don't doubt the value of the book overall, I appreciate the blogger's skepticism. When the story seems too perfect to be true, it most likely isn't. I find the same thing often in Malcolm Gladwell -- the thesis or a close variant of it is true, but the anecdotes are too pat and perfect.

delinka 8y ago
>When the story seems too perfect to be true, it most likely isn't [true]. I was expecting to read >When the story seems too perfect to be true, it most likely isn't [too perfect]. I only comment in case someone else makes my mistake.
paulorlando 8y ago
Yes, that "too perfect" description is what made me look into the Aswan Dam situation after reading Systemantics. But I happened to have time to do just that. Most of what we read/see/hear we don't have time to assess deeply (and even if we did, we might only scratch the surface of deeper knowledge). An enduring problem.

carlob 8y ago

There is also the whole question of salinization. I highly recommend Cadillac Desert

benj111 8y ago

Ok fag packet out. Aswan dam production: 10000gwh [1] Area of Egyptian farmland 3000000 ha [2] Energy input for fertilising ha of wheat: 3000kwh [3] (it could be 47% of this?, but then theres 3 harvests a year...) =9000 gwh So the figure seems plausible? [1] https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aswan_Dam https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aswan_Dam [2] http://www.fao.org/docrep/v9978e/v9978e0e.htm http://www.fao.org/docrep/v9978e/v9978e0e.htm [3] https://www.researchgate.net/publication/279037757_Energy_requirements_and_economic_analysis_of_wheat_rice_and_barley_production_in_Australia https://www.researchgate.net/publication/279037757_Energy_re...