4 ms·

I think if more men were capable of making such a well thought out and logical argument we’d be farther along, but in many cases men have been extremely defensi

I think if more men were capable of making such a well thought out and logical argument we’d be farther along, but in many cases men have been extremely defensive and the most attention has gone to those responses rather than something more substantial such as this. That women are socialized to not be the aggressors and must be pursued not be seen as promiscuous is another problem that feeds into unclear boundaries regarding consent. All part of a larger conversation that can’t be had by pretending there is no problem or by blaming all men or all women.

deleted 8y ago
[deleted]
calyth2018 8y ago
Regardless on the merit on the argument, I expect a storm for Mr. Fard.
dijit 8y ago
I am one of the men who feels defensive, although I try very hard to see both sides. I assume you also wish to know the thoughts of detractors so I'll tell you how I feel and why, and you can decide if you believe me. The topic of social justice is very broad and I'll touch on it broadly as it's (sadly) very complex to distill but needs to be mentioned because the context is incredibly important; I would like to focus on one point but really it's a barrage from all angles and that's important in understanding why some people might feel like me (or, much much worse as the case seems to be). So, I'll get to the point. I'm a white guy, I'm nearly 30 and I have a job in tech. I was raised by a single mother in one of the most impoverished neighbourhoods in one of the most impoverished cities in the UK. I understand that my life was almost certainly better than those outside of the country so please don't assume I'm making a plea to your empathy, I'm just laying context. Due to my relatively poor socio-economic status I was not only surrounded by crime, it was a part of my life intrinsically and unavoidably. My mother could not pull herself out of a benefits cycle because I was a sickly child and was the target of several gangs in the area due to my lack of affiliation with any of them and desire to do nothing more than read books about how computers worked. I was raised in the 90s, again to a single-mother, where as far as I understood, women were to be respected as equals to men, the womens empowerment movement was strong. Indians and Pakistanis were very populous in my region and I learned about other cultures by being very close friends and neighbours with them. They were also poor. Thus many bonds were forged because we had a common enemy: our poverty. I managed to pull myself out of that situation with the help of a library, lots of missed school and a deep unyielding passion for technology that after much struggling led to a job; for which I had to sacrifice everything and I happily did so. -- Why is this important? Mostly because the sentiment is that I should make way for people (based on gender and race) to come into a field that I struggled all my life to get into, something I had a genuine passion for since I touched my mothers commadore64 when I was 6 years old. A job that nobody wanted me to do. (Mother wanted me to be a lawyer or plumber.. not sure what the relation is there). I'm not sure what makes them more worthy than me to get a job other than their race and genitalia, and for me that feels inherently sexist/racist. Because I never even think about race/gender until someone points a finger at it, I feel like _I_ would have already been giving them a fair shout, if I met someone with a genuine passion for tech that I have, then there's absolutely no way that I'd think less of them based on their skin or genitals- It's just completely not in the vein of how I'm thinking. It's like looking at an elephant and saying "you could fit a razor scooter in that things butt"; you don't even think about it until it's mentioned. If someone said to you "don't put a razor scooter in that elephants butt" you'd be offended at the assumption that you'd want to do that (or even thought of it) in the first place.. but I digress. I consider women and people of other races my equals, not that I have any special status I just think we're all struggling with our mortality, fragile bodies, insecurities and nobody is immune to that; I would never be a barrier for anyone capable; but I'm being told I must favour specific classifications people by HR at my company because it makes the company look good. At the same time we have companies like github who actively dissuade white people from managing positions, and list "white" women as being the biggest barriers to inclusion.[0] We're being told that men have all the privilege, and that may be true right now but while social convention for women is changing in a way that can include choice, men do not have the same freedoms. And while it might be true for now that most top CEO positions are held by men; young women are out-earning their male counterparts in the beginning of their careers hour-for-hour[1]. Add to that women are graduating in significantly higher numbers than men[2] and you see that the future will be wildly different without resorting to tactics that I would consider diversive and polarizing. We're being told that we're second-class by some very "forward thinking" US companies (Google, Github are strong examples) due to us being too many in technology, as if it's our fault that we were driven to this and should shoulder some blame as a gender/race. And now there is a movement of people (mostly, toxic twitter users) who expressly do not want me to voice any opinion unless it agrees with them, they do this on the basis of my gender and race. I find this hypocritical in of itself, and it's one of the primary drivers of my victimhood. Anyway, that's not to say that there are real issues to be address (I live in Sweden where many of these issues do not seem nearly as prescient as in the USA). This coupled with those insidiously sexist: "the future is female" t-shirts and grossly sexist terms for condescending/obnoxious behaviour such as "mansplaining" or "manspreading" and I can see how some people are upset, myself included. However, the fact that voicing any kind of opinion against this kind of behaviour leads to people trying to shut down the conversation and tar you with the troll/misogynist/"snowflake" brush is the _biggest_ factor to me feeling like any kind of victim in this narrative. --- Anyway, this turned out to be even lengthier than I expected. But it's a nuanced subject and I've voiced a lot of opposition so I assume that anyone reading is thinking I'm some alt-right nazi and to those people I can only say to you: I have really mulled this over for a long time. It's _IMPOSSIBLE_ to have a reasoned balanced opinion because both sides want to tear you down. We're living in polarizing times and being "otherising" is not helping anyone; I implore you to read what I wrote in good faith and at least take stock that some men feel this way, even if you don't consider it valid. We're all in this together and we should seek harmony. Additionally; A good litmus test to see if something might upset people is to reverse the roles. [0]: http://i.imgur.com/7YaVYUx.jpg http://i.imgur.com/7YaVYUx.jpg [1]: http://fortune.com/2016/04/12/women-are-out-earning-men/ http://fortune.com/2016/04/12/women-are-out-earning-men/ [2]: https://www.quora.com/Why-are-significantly-more-women-than-men-graduating-from-college-in-recent-years https://www.quora.com/Why-are-significantly-more-women-than-...
- jjt-yn_t 8y ago
  Listen to that man, [ world ] [ each continent ] [ each Davos ] [ each investor ] [ each billionaire ] [ each head of state ] [ each HR chief] [ each purchasing department worker] [ each movie maker ] [ earth ] [ nations ] [ voting bloc ] [ blogger ] [ captcha maker ] [ captcha bypasser ] [ money printer ] [ factory builder ] [ number of restrooms architect ] ... see, I snuck one in... ............................. ............................. ............................. ............................. ............................. .............................. comment was on dijit's post, for those skim reading
- thomasmeeks 8y ago
  I read and thought about your comment for a while because I am also a white male, mid 30's, low end of the socioeconomic status in my childhood, and at one time had a lot of the same thoughts as you. Here's what changed my mind. I'm speaking just about my own experiences, it may or may not be useful to you. 1. I realized that survivorship bias was clouding my judgement. This was tough to accept because I first had to philosophically accept that life isn't fair and random chance plays a meaningful factor in everyday life. 2. I realized that this movement isn't about me. When I get defensive over a statement that is statistically true about white men, I'm trying to find a place for myself in a movement that has very little to do with me. I realized that there is and will continue to be a wide gulf between what is true in general and true statistically. Both are important, but in different contexts. 3. I discovered that I had a very poor idea of what non-male and non-white people experience on a day-to-day basis. Even after hearing it I didn't understand until I found myself quitting a job over what were essentially microaggressions towards something I cared a lot about. For example, when I was in high school there were several different ways to go through school. You could be college-bound by taking the right courses to meet entry requirements. Or you could take a more vocational track through high school, and so on. My guidance counselor assume I would go to college -- it was just treated as fact. A female friend of mine that had a similar GPA to myself had to threaten to sue to get her counselor to schedule the right courses for her. She was successful in college. One instance of that is trivial, a lifetime of that bullshit weighs you down. 4. I understood that I cannot call for fairness in my own life because I'm way beyond what's fair already. Life isn't fair. It isn't fair that people die of cancer. It isn't fair that people can work themselves to the bone all their life and remain destitute. If I want to yell about fairness for myself, it only makes sense if I'm willing to yell about fairness for everyone else (because if life is "fair" for me, but not anyone else, it isn't really "fair" is it?). If we were to make the world a fair place in socioeconomic terms, given that there are 7 billion people on the planet, is is exceedingly likely that I would lose some privilege. Thus, if I lose some privilege over the course of my life, I choose to be thankful for the extra privilege I had when I was younger, rather than fretting about how much I can accumulate for the future. 5. I stopped engaging with people that were very angry or very toxic about the subject. Though I have a much better understanding now of where that anger comes from, I realized it was subtly affecting my own perceptions and thinking. There's value in limiting the noise a bit.
ralusek 8y ago
> That women are socialized to not be the aggressors and must be pursued I don't understand why everybody, including academics, are allowed to state outright that effectively every behavior is socialized. Almost every single animal on this planet has the female in the position of choosing among male suitors, who in turn will attempt to outcompete one another with various displays of beauty, craftsmanship, or among many other behaviors, aggression. That doesn't mean that we can't socialize to suppress or alter behaviors, but I cannot stand how totally unsubstantiated these claims of social construction are for literally every human behavior.

deleted 8y ago

[deleted]

calyth2018 8y ago

Regardless on the merit on the argument, I expect a storm for Mr. Fard.

dijit 8y ago

I am one of the men who feels defensive, although I try very hard to see both sides. I assume you also wish to know the thoughts of detractors so I'll tell you how I feel and why, and you can decide if you believe me. The topic of social justice is very broad and I'll touch on it broadly as it's (sadly) very complex to distill but needs to be mentioned because the context is incredibly important; I would like to focus on one point but really it's a barrage from all angles and that's important in understanding why some people might feel like me (or, much much worse as the case seems to be). So, I'll get to the point. I'm a white guy, I'm nearly 30 and I have a job in tech. I was raised by a single mother in one of the most impoverished neighbourhoods in one of the most impoverished cities in the UK. I understand that my life was almost certainly better than those outside of the country so please don't assume I'm making a plea to your empathy, I'm just laying context. Due to my relatively poor socio-economic status I was not only surrounded by crime, it was a part of my life intrinsically and unavoidably. My mother could not pull herself out of a benefits cycle because I was a sickly child and was the target of several gangs in the area due to my lack of affiliation with any of them and desire to do nothing more than read books about how computers worked. I was raised in the 90s, again to a single-mother, where as far as I understood, women were to be respected as equals to men, the womens empowerment movement was strong. Indians and Pakistanis were very populous in my region and I learned about other cultures by being very close friends and neighbours with them. They were also poor. Thus many bonds were forged because we had a common enemy: our poverty. I managed to pull myself out of that situation with the help of a library, lots of missed school and a deep unyielding passion for technology that after much struggling led to a job; for which I had to sacrifice everything and I happily did so. -- Why is this important? Mostly because the sentiment is that I should make way for people (based on gender and race) to come into a field that I struggled all my life to get into, something I had a genuine passion for since I touched my mothers commadore64 when I was 6 years old. A job that nobody wanted me to do. (Mother wanted me to be a lawyer or plumber.. not sure what the relation is there). I'm not sure what makes them more worthy than me to get a job other than their race and genitalia, and for me that feels inherently sexist/racist. Because I never even think about race/gender until someone points a finger at it, I feel like _I_ would have already been giving them a fair shout, if I met someone with a genuine passion for tech that I have, then there's absolutely no way that I'd think less of them based on their skin or genitals- It's just completely not in the vein of how I'm thinking. It's like looking at an elephant and saying "you could fit a razor scooter in that things butt"; you don't even think about it until it's mentioned. If someone said to you "don't put a razor scooter in that elephants butt" you'd be offended at the assumption that you'd want to do that (or even thought of it) in the first place.. but I digress. I consider women and people of other races my equals, not that I have any special status I just think we're all struggling with our mortality, fragile bodies, insecurities and nobody is immune to that; I would never be a barrier for anyone capable; but I'm being told I must favour specific classifications people by HR at my company because it makes the company look good. At the same time we have companies like github who actively dissuade white people from managing positions, and list "white" women as being the biggest barriers to inclusion.[0] We're being told that men have all the privilege, and that may be true right now but while social convention for women is changing in a way that can include choice, men do not have the same freedoms. And while it might be true for now that most top CEO positions are held by men; young women are out-earning their male counterparts in the beginning of their careers hour-for-hour[1]. Add to that women are graduating in significantly higher numbers than men[2] and you see that the future will be wildly different without resorting to tactics that I would consider diversive and polarizing. We're being told that we're second-class by some very "forward thinking" US companies (Google, Github are strong examples) due to us being too many in technology, as if it's our fault that we were driven to this and should shoulder some blame as a gender/race. And now there is a movement of people (mostly, toxic twitter users) who expressly do not want me to voice any opinion unless it agrees with them, they do this on the basis of my gender and race. I find this hypocritical in of itself, and it's one of the primary drivers of my victimhood. Anyway, that's not to say that there are real issues to be address (I live in Sweden where many of these issues do not seem nearly as prescient as in the USA). This coupled with those insidiously sexist: "the future is female" t-shirts and grossly sexist terms for condescending/obnoxious behaviour such as "mansplaining" or "manspreading" and I can see how some people are upset, myself included. However, the fact that voicing any kind of opinion against this kind of behaviour leads to people trying to shut down the conversation and tar you with the troll/misogynist/"snowflake" brush is the _biggest_ factor to me feeling like any kind of victim in this narrative. --- Anyway, this turned out to be even lengthier than I expected. But it's a nuanced subject and I've voiced a lot of opposition so I assume that anyone reading is thinking I'm some alt-right nazi and to those people I can only say to you: I have really mulled this over for a long time. It's _IMPOSSIBLE_ to have a reasoned balanced opinion because both sides want to tear you down. We're living in polarizing times and being "otherising" is not helping anyone; I implore you to read what I wrote in good faith and at least take stock that some men feel this way, even if you don't consider it valid. We're all in this together and we should seek harmony. Additionally; A good litmus test to see if something might upset people is to reverse the roles. [0]: http://i.imgur.com/7YaVYUx.jpg http://i.imgur.com/7YaVYUx.jpg [1]: http://fortune.com/2016/04/12/women-are-out-earning-men/ http://fortune.com/2016/04/12/women-are-out-earning-men/ [2]: https://www.quora.com/Why-are-significantly-more-women-than-men-graduating-from-college-in-recent-years https://www.quora.com/Why-are-significantly-more-women-than-...

jjt-yn_t 8y ago
Listen to that man, [ world ] [ each continent ] [ each Davos ] [ each investor ] [ each billionaire ] [ each head of state ] [ each HR chief] [ each purchasing department worker] [ each movie maker ] [ earth ] [ nations ] [ voting bloc ] [ blogger ] [ captcha maker ] [ captcha bypasser ] [ money printer ] [ factory builder ] [ number of restrooms architect ] ... see, I snuck one in... ............................. ............................. ............................. ............................. ............................. .............................. comment was on dijit's post, for those skim reading
thomasmeeks 8y ago
I read and thought about your comment for a while because I am also a white male, mid 30's, low end of the socioeconomic status in my childhood, and at one time had a lot of the same thoughts as you. Here's what changed my mind. I'm speaking just about my own experiences, it may or may not be useful to you. 1. I realized that survivorship bias was clouding my judgement. This was tough to accept because I first had to philosophically accept that life isn't fair and random chance plays a meaningful factor in everyday life. 2. I realized that this movement isn't about me. When I get defensive over a statement that is statistically true about white men, I'm trying to find a place for myself in a movement that has very little to do with me. I realized that there is and will continue to be a wide gulf between what is true in general and true statistically. Both are important, but in different contexts. 3. I discovered that I had a very poor idea of what non-male and non-white people experience on a day-to-day basis. Even after hearing it I didn't understand until I found myself quitting a job over what were essentially microaggressions towards something I cared a lot about. For example, when I was in high school there were several different ways to go through school. You could be college-bound by taking the right courses to meet entry requirements. Or you could take a more vocational track through high school, and so on. My guidance counselor assume I would go to college -- it was just treated as fact. A female friend of mine that had a similar GPA to myself had to threaten to sue to get her counselor to schedule the right courses for her. She was successful in college. One instance of that is trivial, a lifetime of that bullshit weighs you down. 4. I understood that I cannot call for fairness in my own life because I'm way beyond what's fair already. Life isn't fair. It isn't fair that people die of cancer. It isn't fair that people can work themselves to the bone all their life and remain destitute. If I want to yell about fairness for myself, it only makes sense if I'm willing to yell about fairness for everyone else (because if life is "fair" for me, but not anyone else, it isn't really "fair" is it?). If we were to make the world a fair place in socioeconomic terms, given that there are 7 billion people on the planet, is is exceedingly likely that I would lose some privilege. Thus, if I lose some privilege over the course of my life, I choose to be thankful for the extra privilege I had when I was younger, rather than fretting about how much I can accumulate for the future. 5. I stopped engaging with people that were very angry or very toxic about the subject. Though I have a much better understanding now of where that anger comes from, I realized it was subtly affecting my own perceptions and thinking. There's value in limiting the noise a bit.

ralusek 8y ago

> That women are socialized to not be the aggressors and must be pursued I don't understand why everybody, including academics, are allowed to state outright that effectively every behavior is socialized. Almost every single animal on this planet has the female in the position of choosing among male suitors, who in turn will attempt to outcompete one another with various displays of beauty, craftsmanship, or among many other behaviors, aggression. That doesn't mean that we can't socialize to suppress or alter behaviors, but I cannot stand how totally unsubstantiated these claims of social construction are for literally every human behavior.