5 ms·

> worm's intelligence Done. http://openworm.org/ http://openworm.org/

by kordlessagain 8y ago

jcoffland 8y ago
Not done. OpenWorm is a project to create a worm simulation. An important distinction.
- ben_w 8y ago
  More like “overdone”, it’s a cellular simulation including the brain as a first step.
  - notahacker 8y ago
    The brain in question is 302 neurons, which is probably fewer than most of us have lost whilst participating in this discussion! But they also need to simulate a nervous system, mobility, food needs, interaction etc to have a remotely persuasive argument that a 302 node neural network actually resembles a worm brain. It can't be as smart as even a really stupid worm until it can perform analogous tasks to the worm, which means having some sort of artificial body to wiggle. (parallel arguments but for human/mouse level complexity of bodies and stimuli responded to would suggest that whole brain emulation is going to be an incredibly painful way to attempt to achieve AGI)
    - ben_w 8y ago
      > But they also need to simulate a nervous system, mobility, food needs, interaction etc to have a remotely persuasive argument that a 302 node neural network actually resembles a worm brain. It can't be as smart as even a really stupid worm until it can perform analogous tasks to the worm, which means having some sort of artificial body to wiggle. It has those things[1]. There’s a video of its simulated body wiggling around on the project’s github repository. [1] except possibly food, I was skimming the page.
      - notahacker 8y ago
        Sure, I've even seen the wiggles; I was making the point that's why they needed it to yield anything that could be compared with the real thing (though I'm not sure it has food and reproduction simulated yet, and I'd imagine a large portion of the worm's limited capability for cognition is ultimately directed to pursuing those ends)
      - goatlover 8y ago
        It needs to be able to survive and reproduce in an environment like a real worm does to prove that it's just as intelligent, and not just wiggle around.
      - dtsdtsdts 8y ago
        "To get a quick idea of what this looks like, check out the latest movie. In this movie you can see a simulated 3D C. elegans being activated in an environment. Its muscles are located around the outside of its body, and as they contract, they exert forces on the surrounding fluid, propelling the body forward via undulutory thrust. In this model, the neural system is not considered and patterns of muscle contraction are explicitly defined" http://docs.openworm.org/en/0.9/projects/ http://docs.openworm.org/en/0.9/projects/
        jcoffland 8y ago
        > In this model, the neural system is not considered and patterns of muscle contraction are explicitly defined. In other words, the simulated worm brain is not yet even capable of causing the wiggling seen in the video. So the question remains, what can the simulated neurons do, f anything?
mattkrause 8y ago
Alas, it's not even close to "done." It's a work in progress and a surprisingly difficult one. For context, the worm (c. elegans, at least) has a very stereotyped nervous system with 302 neurons. The anatomy, down to the cellular level, is known incredibly well. Their behavioral repertoire is not huge and they're fairly easy to study. Nevertheless, we can't even simulate a worm very accurately. (There was a good twitter thread about why yesterday: https://twitter.com/OdedRechavi/status/1086992699528544256 https://twitter.com/OdedRechavi/status/1086992699528544256) The human eyeball has about 120M rods, 6.5M cones, and projects to a brain containing ~86B neurons, which is about 8-9 orders of magnitude more cells. The number of possible interactions scales even faster. In summary, we're not close, not at all....
- mateo1 8y ago
  When biology comes into play, you can see how weak our understanding and abilities are. We can barely simulate small proteins of a few thousand atoms. Accurately simulating an entire cell is (at the moment) in the realm of science fiction. Only inaccurate abstractions can be used to model it. However I have to object in a way about the brain. To me, there's an unanswered question: Is the rest of the human brain as simple and "generic" as the convolutional neural networks we made inspired by the vision system? Or is each networks' architecture and "algorithms" developed specifically for a task? In the latter case we might still be a very long way from anything resembling AGI. However my personal estimation is that most of the things we do can be modeled using existing tools when scaled and modified appropriately (ie RNNs). There's also the ugly job of stitching those systems together, but it's not that different from what happens in nature.

> worm's intelligence Done. http://openworm.org/ http://openworm.org/

jcoffland 8y ago

Not done. OpenWorm is a project to create a worm simulation. An important distinction.

ben_w 8y ago
More like “overdone”, it’s a cellular simulation including the brain as a first step.
- notahacker 8y ago
  The brain in question is 302 neurons, which is probably fewer than most of us have lost whilst participating in this discussion! But they also need to simulate a nervous system, mobility, food needs, interaction etc to have a remotely persuasive argument that a 302 node neural network actually resembles a worm brain. It can't be as smart as even a really stupid worm until it can perform analogous tasks to the worm, which means having some sort of artificial body to wiggle. (parallel arguments but for human/mouse level complexity of bodies and stimuli responded to would suggest that whole brain emulation is going to be an incredibly painful way to attempt to achieve AGI)
  - ben_w 8y ago
    > But they also need to simulate a nervous system, mobility, food needs, interaction etc to have a remotely persuasive argument that a 302 node neural network actually resembles a worm brain. It can't be as smart as even a really stupid worm until it can perform analogous tasks to the worm, which means having some sort of artificial body to wiggle. It has those things[1]. There’s a video of its simulated body wiggling around on the project’s github repository. [1] except possibly food, I was skimming the page.
    - notahacker 8y ago
      Sure, I've even seen the wiggles; I was making the point that's why they needed it to yield anything that could be compared with the real thing (though I'm not sure it has food and reproduction simulated yet, and I'd imagine a large portion of the worm's limited capability for cognition is ultimately directed to pursuing those ends)
    - goatlover 8y ago
      It needs to be able to survive and reproduce in an environment like a real worm does to prove that it's just as intelligent, and not just wiggle around.
    - dtsdtsdts 8y ago
      "To get a quick idea of what this looks like, check out the latest movie. In this movie you can see a simulated 3D C. elegans being activated in an environment. Its muscles are located around the outside of its body, and as they contract, they exert forces on the surrounding fluid, propelling the body forward via undulutory thrust. In this model, the neural system is not considered and patterns of muscle contraction are explicitly defined" http://docs.openworm.org/en/0.9/projects/ http://docs.openworm.org/en/0.9/projects/
      - jcoffland 8y ago
        > In this model, the neural system is not considered and patterns of muscle contraction are explicitly defined. In other words, the simulated worm brain is not yet even capable of causing the wiggling seen in the video. So the question remains, what can the simulated neurons do, f anything?

mattkrause 8y ago

Alas, it's not even close to "done." It's a work in progress and a surprisingly difficult one. For context, the worm (c. elegans, at least) has a very stereotyped nervous system with 302 neurons. The anatomy, down to the cellular level, is known incredibly well. Their behavioral repertoire is not huge and they're fairly easy to study. Nevertheless, we can't even simulate a worm very accurately. (There was a good twitter thread about why yesterday: https://twitter.com/OdedRechavi/status/1086992699528544256 https://twitter.com/OdedRechavi/status/1086992699528544256) The human eyeball has about 120M rods, 6.5M cones, and projects to a brain containing ~86B neurons, which is about 8-9 orders of magnitude more cells. The number of possible interactions scales even faster. In summary, we're not close, not at all....

mateo1 8y ago
When biology comes into play, you can see how weak our understanding and abilities are. We can barely simulate small proteins of a few thousand atoms. Accurately simulating an entire cell is (at the moment) in the realm of science fiction. Only inaccurate abstractions can be used to model it. However I have to object in a way about the brain. To me, there's an unanswered question: Is the rest of the human brain as simple and "generic" as the convolutional neural networks we made inspired by the vision system? Or is each networks' architecture and "algorithms" developed specifically for a task? In the latter case we might still be a very long way from anything resembling AGI. However my personal estimation is that most of the things we do can be modeled using existing tools when scaled and modified appropriately (ie RNNs). There's also the ugly job of stitching those systems together, but it's not that different from what happens in nature.