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"... Thus, bullies get to bully with no fear. There's no consequence. Whereas when a weaker kid fights back, even if the bully is strong enough to "win" the bat

"... Thus, bullies get to bully with no fear. There's no consequence. Whereas when a weaker kid fights back, even if the bully is strong enough to "win" the battle, he still gets hit in the mouth and does not like it. Bullies much prefer low-hanging fruit that doesn't fight back. ..." There are always consequences, failure to prevent bullying, failure to check payback. Failure if you do nothing. The payback pattern is culturally prevalent but flawed. [0] The payback pattern might work but it escalates violence. There are better ways that allow you to hack people and their behaviour to get at the root cause at a higher level than the individual. The approach can be top down or bottom-up, it doesn't matter as long as the level of violence is reduced. This is also the inherent weakness of the solution, but it holds more promise for the greater good than payback. "However, you will never use force to do anything but protect yourself or your friend. If I find that YOU have been the aggressor, I will smite you." QED, the cycle repeats. [0] Chris Bullock, "Payback out of control in Central Australia" http://www.abc.net.au/news/stories/2010/11/12/3064586.htm http://www.abc.net.au/news/stories/2010/11/12/3064586.htm

zaphar 16y ago
"The payback pattern might work but it escalates violence." Not all violence is payback. Defending against a Bully is one example of this. Defending yourself physically in an altercation is a violent behaviour but it is not retaliation or revenge. And as the personal anecdotes on this page reveal frequently stems the cycle of violence. Now if you wait for days after and take revenge against the Bully then yes the violence will likely escalate. But self-defense is an entirely different thing. My kids have been taught basic self-defense and should they ever be forced into a physical altercation have my full blessing to take whatever means are necessary to ensure they come out of the experience the victor. Bullies thrive on the easy victim not defending yourself won't change this.
- bootload 16y ago
  "... personal anecdotes on this page reveal frequently stems the cycle of violence. ..." I'm really trying to look beyond the symptom and look at the root causes. Read the article I cited to see that this is not just a problem for the targeted individual but whole groups as well. "... Bullies thrive on the easy victim not defending yourself won't change this ..." Bullies thrive in environments where bulling is tolerated. Change the culture to make it bully-proof ~ http://www.abc.net.au/reslib/201011/r671527_4889232.jpg http://www.abc.net.au/reslib/201011/r671527_4889232.jpg out than just letting having to expect kids to bear the brunt of inaction. Individual action maybe warranted, it's too much of a problem for individuals. Group action is needed as well. If you think about HN for a moment advising every user to read & re-read http://paulgraham.com/disagree.html http://paulgraham.com/disagree.html and prepare for an eventual verbal stoush. You defend yourself well using combinations of DH0 to DH6. The attacker moves to a less prepared target. Instead of relying on just individual users the HN community (users & code) fight back to enforce civility. The same ideas can be applied to bullies and targets, organisations and groups of people.

zaphar 16y ago

"The payback pattern might work but it escalates violence." Not all violence is payback. Defending against a Bully is one example of this. Defending yourself physically in an altercation is a violent behaviour but it is not retaliation or revenge. And as the personal anecdotes on this page reveal frequently stems the cycle of violence. Now if you wait for days after and take revenge against the Bully then yes the violence will likely escalate. But self-defense is an entirely different thing. My kids have been taught basic self-defense and should they ever be forced into a physical altercation have my full blessing to take whatever means are necessary to ensure they come out of the experience the victor. Bullies thrive on the easy victim not defending yourself won't change this.

bootload 16y ago
"... personal anecdotes on this page reveal frequently stems the cycle of violence. ..." I'm really trying to look beyond the symptom and look at the root causes. Read the article I cited to see that this is not just a problem for the targeted individual but whole groups as well. "... Bullies thrive on the easy victim not defending yourself won't change this ..." Bullies thrive in environments where bulling is tolerated. Change the culture to make it bully-proof ~ http://www.abc.net.au/reslib/201011/r671527_4889232.jpg http://www.abc.net.au/reslib/201011/r671527_4889232.jpg out than just letting having to expect kids to bear the brunt of inaction. Individual action maybe warranted, it's too much of a problem for individuals. Group action is needed as well. If you think about HN for a moment advising every user to read & re-read http://paulgraham.com/disagree.html http://paulgraham.com/disagree.html and prepare for an eventual verbal stoush. You defend yourself well using combinations of DH0 to DH6. The attacker moves to a less prepared target. Instead of relying on just individual users the HN community (users & code) fight back to enforce civility. The same ideas can be applied to bullies and targets, organisations and groups of people.