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You're missing the point. There is feedback: usage stats. Public transport is already heavily subsidised in most European cities. One of the aim is to cut car

You're missing the point. There is feedback: usage stats. Public transport is already heavily subsidised in most European cities. One of the aim is to cut car use, not to specifically balance the books of just public transports. The issue is thus to avoid using taxpayers' money to finance lines that run mostly empty.

bobthepanda 8y ago
If people are driving in, is cost what’s stopping them? At least in the US public transport riders have lower incomes than those who do not.
- y4mi 8y ago
  I can only speak for myself, but I would've used the train if it hadn't been just as expensive and less convenient than the car 3 yrs ago. Now I'm living in biking distance from work and sold my car entirely. This is coming from Germany though, so ymmv
- vladvasiliu 8y ago
  Probably not. However, having free public transportation will actually reduce operating costs: no need to maintain all the infrastructure (and people) needed for selling and checking transit passes. This can improve passenger flow (I live in Paris, and turnstyles are a major pain during rush hour) and passenger convenience. In the case of Paris, traffic is positively horrible, and parking is even worse of a joke. Yet there are people who still prefer driving and who don't even come from the suburbs (where public transit may be somewhat lacking). The reason is clearly one of convenience which means that this should be taken into account by the authorities if they really want people to drive less (which is the official policy here).
  - bobthepanda 8y ago
    I agree that passenger convenience is extremely important. Part of passenger convenience is the ability to be able to use the train for its base purpose, to get on the vehicle that gets you from A to B. My concern is that free transit would lead to an insatiable amount of travel demand, which we already see with free roads that magically fill up the moment expansions open. A free train is useless if you can't board it. And even with Paris's ambitious plans to expand transit there probably wouldn't be enough capacity, and even that new capacity is only scheduled to come online in a few years' time, since you can't increase buses and trains available instantly.
    - vladvasiliu 8y ago
      It's true that new capacity generates new demand, however I think there are some limits. When the monthly pass pricing became flat, it was way cheaper for people living far in the suburbs to come to Paris proper. I don't have any numbers, but I don't have the impression that people started coming in in much greater numbers. In the case of Paris, public transit is already insufficient during peak times. I'm sure most people who don't already take it have reasons other than the price, meaning that if it were free there wouldn't be a significant rise in traffic. However, I think that all the money spent on the ticketing system could help improve the general reliability which in turn would help provide more capacity. This would probable incite more people to take public transport which could help the transport authority obtain more funding from the region government. As in Paris the transport authority is already heavily subsidized, I think it would be interesting to have to some numbers on how much tickets bring in vs how much the whole ticketing infrastructure costs.

bobthepanda 8y ago

If people are driving in, is cost what’s stopping them? At least in the US public transport riders have lower incomes than those who do not.

y4mi 8y ago
I can only speak for myself, but I would've used the train if it hadn't been just as expensive and less convenient than the car 3 yrs ago. Now I'm living in biking distance from work and sold my car entirely. This is coming from Germany though, so ymmv
vladvasiliu 8y ago
Probably not. However, having free public transportation will actually reduce operating costs: no need to maintain all the infrastructure (and people) needed for selling and checking transit passes. This can improve passenger flow (I live in Paris, and turnstyles are a major pain during rush hour) and passenger convenience. In the case of Paris, traffic is positively horrible, and parking is even worse of a joke. Yet there are people who still prefer driving and who don't even come from the suburbs (where public transit may be somewhat lacking). The reason is clearly one of convenience which means that this should be taken into account by the authorities if they really want people to drive less (which is the official policy here).
- bobthepanda 8y ago
  I agree that passenger convenience is extremely important. Part of passenger convenience is the ability to be able to use the train for its base purpose, to get on the vehicle that gets you from A to B. My concern is that free transit would lead to an insatiable amount of travel demand, which we already see with free roads that magically fill up the moment expansions open. A free train is useless if you can't board it. And even with Paris's ambitious plans to expand transit there probably wouldn't be enough capacity, and even that new capacity is only scheduled to come online in a few years' time, since you can't increase buses and trains available instantly.
  - vladvasiliu 8y ago
    It's true that new capacity generates new demand, however I think there are some limits. When the monthly pass pricing became flat, it was way cheaper for people living far in the suburbs to come to Paris proper. I don't have any numbers, but I don't have the impression that people started coming in in much greater numbers. In the case of Paris, public transit is already insufficient during peak times. I'm sure most people who don't already take it have reasons other than the price, meaning that if it were free there wouldn't be a significant rise in traffic. However, I think that all the money spent on the ticketing system could help improve the general reliability which in turn would help provide more capacity. This would probable incite more people to take public transport which could help the transport authority obtain more funding from the region government. As in Paris the transport authority is already heavily subsidized, I think it would be interesting to have to some numbers on how much tickets bring in vs how much the whole ticketing infrastructure costs.