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The Tech Industry Has a Drinking Problem and It Is Hurting Diversity
- sparrish 8y agoThis is especially true of tech conferences. I've stopped attending altogether mostly due to the drinking 'culture' of the events.
- squirrelicus 8y ago> Before we can have a healthy conversation about this, I assume you’ll agree that our industry has an inclusion and diversity problem. If this isn’t the case, you can stop here; I doubt I’m going to convince you of anything in this post. I guess I have to stop reading there. :/
- alkibiades 8y agosame :(
- kcmastrpc 8y agoyou're welcome, i saved you both 3 minutes of your life.
- yakshaving_jgt 8y agoI love the implication that if you don’t agree, you can’t have a healthy discussion. I’m also not sure of the aim; if you have no desire to convince those who don’t initially agree, you’re preaching to the choir. Isn’t the diversity gang enough of an echo chamber already?
- squirrelicus 8y agoSo very this. I'm more than happy to discuss how alcohol does impact diversity and inclusion in negative ways. I think it's fascinating subject I haven't thought about.
- r00fus 8y agoA reasonable discussion has to take some ground level agreements before you can discuss the finer details. Otherwise you get Twitter.
- AnaniasAnanas 8y agoI was under the impression that the issue with twitter was with the maximum length of posts which encourages low-quality one-liners.
- normal_man 8y agoIt could just be an attempt to discuss nuances of the situation with people who are on the same page rather than feeling like they have to engage every bad faith "devil's advocate" who wanders in and somehow disagrees with the fact that a very small amount of black or hispanic people work in tech.
- yakshaving_jgt 8y agoHave you considered that those arguing against the standard diversity tropes aren’t arguing in bad faith? At least from my perspective, affirmative action is immoral, and any notion of power imbalance doesn’t seep into my understanding of the definition of discrimination. People can have deeply considered all the nuances posed and still come up with a perspective that differs from the accepted social justice narrative.
- deleted 8y ago[deleted]
- squirrelicus 8y agoI've not met someone who rejects the assertion that there's a diversity and inclusion problem simultaneously asserting that the data do not in fact show that various classes are underrepresented.
- smacktoward 8y agoThe aim is to be able to focus on the actual issue the piece is concerned with, rather than spending hours sea-lioning (see https://knowyourmeme.com/memes/sea-lioning https://knowyourmeme.com/memes/sea-lioning) every tangentially related issue that connects to it over and over again.
- crankylinuxuser 8y agoThat would seem to intertwine very well with gish galloping. Simultaneously feign sincerity, argue over definitions, demand sources of every word, and combine it with countersources from a gish... Well. That explains Reddit! /g (Its the procedure of an argument by flooding you with half baked sources, and by the time you're through 5, you have 20 more.) https://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Gish_Gallop https://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Gish_Gallop (Edit: I wasn't proposing DOING that. I was making note that these logical fallacies tend to stack and greatly compound each other. And they can be a nightmare to unravel if ONLY in a gish gallop. If both of these are executed, the gish is a insincere attempt at complete disruption; and anyone trying to stop it is accused of being really rude. And from a social media perspective, someone calling out a sealioning themselves looks rude.)
- n4r9 8y agoYou're constructing a straw man. The post is making an argument for why there's a lack of inclusion. This rests on the assumption that a lack of inclusion exists. Defending that assumption is left to other discussions, nevertheless there are many people who already agree with it. If you're not such a person i.e. you don't agree with the assumption, the post isn't for you: you have nothing to gain from it.
- squirrelicus 8y agoIt's possible for there to be no systemic inclusion problem and alcohol creates inclusion problems.
- alkibiades 8y agoi guess i’m not sure what the solution is. are we not supposed to drink? Any hobby or activity that not everyone participates in has the potential to be non inclusive. At my last work a lot of people loved camping but i didn’t. Should i stop them from camping because they might make social bonds that aren’t available to me?
- deleted 8y ago[deleted]
- n4r9 8y agoI think the onus is on the company to pro-actively organise social events which don't centre on drinking.
- alkibiades 8y agobut some people are introverts. so it’s not very inclusive to have any event as an extrovert would be more likely to go and make connections and introverts would be discriminated. maybe we should ban all events
- squirrelicus 8y ago
- mikestew 8y agoI love the implication that if you don’t agree, you can’t have a healthy discussion. I love it, too. It gets it out of the way upfront: if we can't agree on $THIS base assumption, then we can't have a healthy discussion about $THAT. In order for that to happen, we need to have another discussion first." If, after discussing whether or not there is an inclusion and diversity problem, you are still at odds, there is little point in further refining the discussion by including alcohol.
- squirrelicus 8y agoThe problem is the "our industry" problem vs "workplaces that include alcohol" problem. The latter can exist without the former.
- Insanity 8y agoI think it largely depends on _where_ you work. You can't just say "our industry" and have it applied world-wide. In all companies I have worked at - there has been diversity. I am also someone who doesn't drink and never felt like this is an issue, though I am from one of the best-known countries for their beer. Next to waffles and chocolates, that's pretty much our thing. I've almost always had a team that existed of a mix of ethnicities and gender. I do think that beer doesn't belong in the workplace, but we do have days when we drink _after_ work, and not necessarily in the workplace. No one ever complained about me getting a coke instead.
- kcmastrpc 8y agono one complains, and my experience is entirely anecdotal but i've had situations where turning down a drink or the next round was met with, "what's wrong with you?"-esque inquires.
- squirrelicus 8y agoThe correct response to "What's wrong with you[, you should take the drink]" is to face the situation forthrightly, not shrink before the social pressure.
- Insanity 8y agoI did have people question why I do not drink, without accusing me. I just say it is a personal choice and that is the end of it. Sometimes, if I am with people who I know longer, I tell them it is because of having an alcohol related death in the family. I also continue with saying I don't mind that they drink. I have done this for about 11 years without any issues.
- tluyben2 8y agoIt depends on the role but I definitely know cases (anecdotal) where sales or pre-sales not drinking with a client/partner/investor was ‘no one complains’ (to your face) but resulted in losing out on a contract or requests for another contact because of social incompatibility. And not one or two. In my experience bucketloads of tech sale deals are done over copious drinking and being an outsider there is not considered a good thing. Admitted; on the workfloor after work with the team no one gives a crap although you might, again in my experience, get less invites for social gatherings as it is still considered ‘boring’ in many circles. That girl or guy who never meshes well at TGiF or the ‘after work pint at the local’. As someone who sometimes drinks too much and often drinks nothing at all (I have no off switch so I prefer nothing), I know that feeling; you really need a lot of energy and patience to stick around at gatherings where everyone is plastered and having too much fun and you are sober. I have seen the issue in UK, US, NL, DE, HK, AU and, ofcourse, CN. But anecdotal so your mileage definitely may vary.
- robax 8y agoAre you saying the tech industry doesn't have a diversity problem? Isn't the gender ratio all the evidence you need?
- WillPostForFood 8y agoNo, and no, but the point is the author should be inviting those that disagree to read, not trying to fence them out.
- kcmastrpc 8y agoYou're right, and I won't make that mistake again.
- Pica_soO 8y agoIts not about diversity, its about controlling the discourse and the social narrative of a society- aka, its about power. Real discussion could erode those artificial boundaries and propaganda towers. They want you to yell, but they dont want you to talk.
- squirrelicus 8y agoIt's not clear what it's evidence of. At the very least, it's part of a very large, universal, and systemic body of societal evidence that (1) Women and men tend to (when considering large numbers) choose different professions when they are choosing freely for themselves (2) The more egalitarian and socially inclusive a society is, the more the differences between women and men are exaggerated, especially in career choices. I want women and men to choose occupations that are easy for them to find long term meaning in. I don't want my girls choosing STEM because they feel like they're less-than if they don't. Here's a reductio ad absurdum: is it a diversity and inclusion problem that there are almost no female bering sea crab fisherwomen or oil rig workers? Men are more willing to choose more lethal professions, it's part of what our hormones tell us to do.
- kcmastrpc 8y agoWe can't compare high-risk jobs with IT, for obvious reasons. I'm merely suggesting a correlation between the proliferation of alcohol in our industry, the parties, the trade shows, with the prevalence of young white males in our line of work. I merely found data which loosely supports (and you could successfully argue that it has no correlation) my hypothesis.
- bischofs 8y ago"You don't agree with me, I can't change that so please exclude yourself from the conversation"
- adrusi 8y agoI've seen plenty of arguments against the claim that the tech industry has a bias problem, but that's only one of a number of inclusion/diversity problems an industry could have. If members of underrepresented_group would prefer to have more colleagues from underrepresented_group, then that's a problem, even if it's not an injustice. If you have friends from underrepresented_group, and having less of a drinking culture would solve their problem, then you have a reason to want less of a drinking culture. The author probably thinks there is an injustice, because people who write on this topic usually think there is. Nothing that they say depends on the problem being one of injustice.
- thinkingkong 8y agoI'm not sure this is a systematic issue vs a workplace by workplace issue. Certainly some companies have a lot more of a drink focused culture than others. Additionally, some teams (lookin' at you, Sales) have the stereotype of having that kind of environment. As far as addressing drinking, I think the thing to tackle is being compassionate and empathetic to all sorts of issues, not just alcohol abuse in particular. Do you have members on the team that have a disability? Do people practice a religion that requires quiet space throughout the day? How will you accommodate those people?
- squirrelicus 8y agoI think a key difference is that people are more than capable of doing their job while differently abled or differently religious. Alcoholics or those who choose to abuse alcohol in the workplace are not capable of doing their job.
- edent 8y agoAbsolutely true. I drink, but I also commute by car - so that rules out drinking socially at work. My recent offices have been good about mixing the mandatory-fun-days between drinking and dry establishments. We did have to chat to an enthusiastic social organiser about why a cocktail mixing class wasn't going to be a great team-building experience with half our team missing. And, yes, I've been guilty of lazily organising pizza and beer dev events when I really should know better. I'd rather have it called out than have people feel uncomfortable.
- bischofs 8y agoMore like "The Drinking Industry has a Tech problem", HeHehe
- hprotagonist 8y agoNeo-puritans are very strange people. I feel like it wouldn't be too difficult to go find prohibitionist rhetoric from the 1890s that essentially recapitulates exactly this post. Instead of a bar or keg at the office, consider an exercise room with equipment that tracks, ranks, and encourages competition. Ableism! Ageism! and a healthy serving of Hobbsean ruthlessness to boot. That'll clear up those pesky diversity issues in short order.
- deleted 8y ago[deleted]
- YuriNiyazov 8y ago"consider an exercise room with equipment that tracks, ranks, and encourages competition." I also loled when I read that. Let's replace one extremely bro-ey activity with another. Brillant.
- kcmastrpc 8y agoyea, because having a drinking contest is good for you, amirite?
- sdinsn 8y agoHow is exercise a bro-ey activity? Don't project your insecurity on reality.
- hprotagonist 8y agoexercise isn't. "I can bench more than you, bruh, and our #maxflex slack channel that updates from the weight room proves it!" sure is.
- cirgue 8y ago> It is time our industry recognizes that alcohol has no place in healthy, diverse, and inclusive environments. If your working environment has issues with people getting trashed and behaving unprofessionally at company functions where alcohol is served, I would posit that the problem will not disappear in the absence of alcohol.
- chooseaname 8y agoIt's not the "tech industry". It's a certain segment of the "tech industry". The same segment that hires like a fraternity hazing. That segment cultivates this. That segment wants this. Is that good or bad? I dunno. I don't want any part of it, but that's my choice.
- 0xBA5ED 8y ago>Instead of a bar or keg at the office, consider an exercise room with equipment that tracks, ranks, and encourages competition. Can you see how your own logic can be applied to this suggestion turning it into a "systemic inclusion problem" for people who don't want to hang out in the exercise room or publicly compare their physical abilities with their coworkers? It's nonsense. People will do what they choose to do and personal choices will _never_ be equally represented in any population.
- noelwelsh 8y agoWe recently rented an office at a WeWork location. I was first surprised to find that beer was available on tap, and then that it was limited to four beers per day---presumably due to abuse in the past. I wasn't actually at that office, so I can't comment on the atmosphere, but this seems to me to be encourage a frat-boy / heavy drinking culture. I've seen similar in certain parts of start-up land. As something who doesn't like alcohol I do find this off-putting, and if I was looking for a job I would stay away from places that advertised easy availability of alcohol as a perk. I don't think this the culture of all of tech. Indeed tech is too big to have one culture. But it is in my experience the culture of part of it.
- zozbot123 8y ago> ...And It Is Hurting Diversity Is this really the best angle that they could find? One would assume that a drinking problem - even when confined outside of actual "work" - would impact basic professionalism well before diversity. See, e.g. the way that a widespread "drinking culture" may have contributed to the recently-unearthed cases of harrassment at top "tech" firms.
- pdpi 8y agoAIUI the author is being too clever by half, by using "drinking problem" to mean "a problem that involves drinking" (the "drinking culture" you alluded to) rather than the usual meaning "suffers from alcoholism".
- funkjunky 8y agoChrist, what next? Ping pong tables create an inclusivity problem? Music played in the lobby? Catering? Anything that can conceivably differentiate individuals is fair game for these inclusivity nuts. People's tastes are different, what brings people together is going to be different, and people of some kind or another are going to be left out one way or another. You can't have diversity and complete inclusivity at the same time, they ultimately contradict each other.
- yakshaving_jgt 8y ago> You can't have diversity and complete inclusivity at the same time, they ultimately contradict each other. That's because the diversity these people care about is only skin-deep.
- fit2rule 8y agoIts not just alcohol. In the last few years I've counted too many startup CEO's who use speed, mushrooms, LSD and MDMA as if they are standard tools of the trade. It seems like there was a lull during the early part of the 2000's, but recently a resurgence in the use of mind-altering drugs in this industry seems to have occurred. I fear that there will be a period, up ahead, where it all comes crashing down. Cybernauts may think they've got everything under control, but in my opinion this point of view requires a great deal of ignorance of the decades past, not to mention dire hubris.
- Digit-Al 8y agoLet's face it, the tech industry is is not renowned for a lack of hubris.
- bjourne 8y agoIn my experience, alcohol is mostly served to techies because they aren't very social while sober. Yes, it is stereotype but I've found it to be 100% true. :) Even with techies, deep technical discussions are very hard to have because they are so shy. Many of them needs to be inebriated to dare discussing whether they prefer hash-based disk indices or tree-based ones.
- Tehchops 8y agoWhile I will absolutely concede that being born a middle-class white Caucasian male in the US is an objectively advantageous and generally privileged situation to be born in to... You're going to lose me at the notion that I'm somehow exercising "white privilege" by consuming/offering alcohol at/around/near work functions or venues. If the author is already making the reader concede an implicit agreement that there is an "inclusion/diversity" problem, then I'd argue the problem exists at a deeper, more fundamental level. This reeks of selection bias and circular reasoning when you say that things that occur in a non-diverse environment are immediately perfect examples of non-diversity because "look at this non-diverse group of people partaking in $thing". I'm even fine with saying it's non-inclusive, except that has to cut across all demographics, including white males. There are plenty of white males employed in tech who find the idea of socializing/drinking with co-workers absolutely contrary to what they feel is fun or engaging. As a thought experiment: let's say all tech companies, from startup to FAANG, as of today, went completely "dry" for any and all work-hosted functions, as well the same policy for all corporate offices/locations. Would diversity get any better? And if not, how can you say it was making it worse?
- kcmastrpc 8y ago> You're going to lose me at the notion that I'm somehow exercising "white privilege" by consuming/offering alcohol at/around/near work functions or venues. That wasn't the point of my statement re: privilege. It was more of an allegory to the fact that I didn't get thrown in jail for some of the really stupid shit I did in the past. Let's also consider the social advantage of those who do imbibe with those who don't in regards to building relationships with superiors at your job.
- leetcrew 8y ago> Let's also consider the social advantage of those who do imbibe with those who don't in regards to building relationships with superiors at your job. why not consider the social advantage of having other hobbies/interests in common with superiors? at one internship I had, one of the senior VPs would routinely come into our room to talk to my mentor about good places to go hiking over the weekend. as far as I could tell, they otherwise had no real reason to interact at work. does this unfairly exclude people like me who aren't outdoorsy types? do we need to do something about it?
- cyberfart 8y ago> Before I begin, I want to say that I’ve spent around 10 years curating this opinion. I don't know what to make of this. Did it require 10 years to write this article? Or is it just "I know what I'm talking about, I've spent 10 years having this opinion"?
- kcmastrpc 8y agoIt's simply meant to prepare the reader that I've put a lot of thought into this, and that I have a pretty strong opinion. If I reflect upon this, it's perhaps to prepare the reader for the idea that it's going to take a very strong counter-argument for me to change my beliefs on this matter.
- rhacker 8y agoAfter reading some of the other reactions to your article, I can't help but feel HN crowd is being quite persnickety today with semantics.
- cyberfart 8y ago"I believed in ... for ... years" is not an argument, it provides no facts, it serves as a tool to psychologically influence the reader.
- mattnewport 8y agoThis post doesn't present any evidence that drinking is more of a problem for the tech industry than any other industry. Purely anecdotally it seems to me that the service industry (restaurants and bars), medicine, journalism, law and aviation are all worse. I don't drink myself and haven't found it to be a problem (although I did drink in the past).
- pkaye 8y agoThe writer needs to be exposed to more varieties of tech companies. I've worked at quite a few tech companies and never had any pressure to drink. And even at those few social events, I just ask for a soda or virgin cocktail and nobody made a fuss.
- ericabiz 8y agoAfter I completed Techstars in 2013, they asked all of us for feedback. My #1 piece of feedback to Techstars was to please stop with alcohol at every event. I had several reasons, most of which aren't really touched on here, but are nonetheless important: 1) I can't hear a damn thing or talk at a normal level to investors or mentors in a bar that is playing loud dance music. (Techstars often held events at local bars.) It is uncomfortable to sit in a barstool and literally yell about your business to someone. I can't imagine this is a gender thing. Most of us, especially introverts, wouldn't be comfortable in that situation. 2) Many people see bars as hookups or pickup spots. The environment is geared toward that. I was in a committed relationship at the time and I'm now married (I'm a woman.) I don't want hookups; I'm there to meet investors or mentors. 3) As in above, even at the office, alcohol blurs boundaries and encourages people to do things they otherwise wouldn't (like yell uncomfortable jokes or hit on other people.) It's not a good look for those of us who are there to work. 4) If you don't like alcohol or don't drink, you miss out on the opportunities to "meet and mingle." I can remember many events I declined because they were alcohol-focused (wine tastings, for instance.) I strongly feel I missed out on potential connections to investors and mentors because of this. I now go more often to these types of events because I feel they further my business, but I wish I didn't have to. I am not as concerned with statistics as I am with alienation. It's not just women or minorities; I've met plenty of straight, white males who don't like drinking either, or feel pressure to drink more than they otherwise would thanks to these events. Removing alcohol from these events does us all good.
- Digit-Al 8y agoAre there really companies that have alcohol available in the office? That seems very odd to me. I am English, which is very much a drinking culture, but every company I have worked at in the last 20 years has had an explicit policy on not drinking alcohol during working hours. This doesn't prevent people having one during their lunch break if they want to, but if you have enough to be noticeable you're probably going to be in trouble; and drinking in the office is definitely frowned upon.
- pseudalopex 8y agoBeer on tap is common at some kinds of companies. Some only bring it out on Friday afternoons. Having enough to be noticeable during work hours would probably get you in trouble.
- sudosteph 8y agoI definitely have worked places where co-workers enjoyed staying late and then heading to a bar afterwards, and honestly I did feel a bit left out because drinking at bars held zero appeal to me. Personally, that is more due to my autism-related aversions to crowds and loud sounds, but knowing that the few bar experiences I've had usually involve a strange man trying to talk to me for a romantic reason if I stray away from another man for two minutes... that really does put the nail in the coffin. It would have been nice if there were other options offered, but really it's even more optimal for me just to work somewhere without any expectation of regular post-work socialization and bonding at all. And working remotely does that for me. I don't feel like I'm missing out or not "one of the team" any more. I'm really not bothered by people sharing a beer or two at the office or lunch though. Nobody gives me a hard time for saying no, as it just means more to go around for others. As long as there are good options, with equal career opportunity growth, available to people who don't prefer cultures where social drinking is the norm, I think it's not a big deal so long as companies are up front with it. I do worry that some people may get a gig on a team at a big company that has that culture though and feel excluded or otherwise be seen as not a team player for not participating, but that can honestly happen with many different things (ie, vegans/vegetarians/religious people needing food options, parents needing kid-friendly schedules) so I don't think not drinking is especially unique - though it is perhaps very often ignored.
- nulbyte 8y ago> 59.8% of respondents who drank in the past 30 days identified as White/Caucasian That's very representative of the country as a whole, wherein white, non-hispanic people make up approximately 61% of the population.[1] Rather than supporting the author's point of view, that statistic seems a good apology for an opposing viewpoint. > How many of you reading this hang out at crack houses or opium dens? I realize this is an extreme example, but I’m being serious...we don’t go to these places because we don’t use those substances... Actually, ...[2] I believe the author has it backwards. Alcohol use isn't contributing to bad work environments; bad work environments are contributing to alcohol abuse. [1]: https://factfinder.census.gov/faces/tableservices/jsf/pages/productview.xhtml?src=bkmk https://factfinder.census.gov/faces/tableservices/jsf/pages/... [2]: https://www.mercurynews.com/2014/07/25/use-of-illicit-drugs-becomes-part-of-silicon-valleys-work-culture/ https://www.mercurynews.com/2014/07/25/use-of-illicit-drugs-...
- renholder 8y agoAll of these stats look to be from American sources. Did you consider the overall rest of the world, when you used the all-encompassing statement "The Tech Industry Has a Drinking Problem"? If not, then I think that, whilst you might have had the best intentions in mind, you really miss the mark for actually covering the whole industry. In other words: How apt are your statistics, anecdotes, and points of view to be applicable in countries where the drinking age is far lower than in the states? What is the actual ratio of those countries having alcohol at company events versus after-work events, coordinated by workers at 'x' company? How much more or less-likely are those countries to have drinking problems (statistically, speaking) in their populace? You seem to ignore this, whilst simultaneously stating that an entire industry has a problem - using a sample-set from a small portion of its total whole. I'm not sure if you're being intentionally disingenuous or if this results from jingosim or if you just haven't considered any of this but it comes across as askewed American exceptionalism: We have this problem and so, by that logic, the whole world must.
- nunez 8y agoI think the OP is onto something, but I'll argue that the OP is leaning too heavily on their convictions instead of using facts to make their case. The first problem I noticed is that they seem to warrant that 4 or 5 drinks per week is "problem drinking." This is not true. First, the point at which drinking is a problem varies from person to person[1]; taller and/or heavier people can drink more than shorter and/or lighter people. Second, the rate at which one drinks is a important factor that isn't considered in OP's opinion piece. Me drinking 4 or 5 beers over the course of a weekend will produce a much different outcome (and a much sadder weekend) than me drinking 4 or 5 beers within an hour (without drinking water in between or after) or even 1 beer per day for the entire work week (which is probably the most telling sign of problem drinking, though it is a very weak sign). The next problem is the introduction itself. The author asserts that the reader is informed of some abstract "diversity and inclusion" problems within tech and automatically dismisses anyone who thinks differently. (How do you fix the fact that white males are much more likely to apply for a tech job than white females or people of color? Is this a symptom or a cause for our diversity problems? These discussions don't matter to the author, however, because the author is automatically right and doubts that they can convince you otherwise. BTW, I generally agree that tech has a diversity problem.) The last problem that I'll call out here is that the author suggests that companies install workout facilities or do non-alcoholic activities every other week instead of installing kegs or going to bars. First, installing exercise rooms is MUCH MUCH MUCH more expensive than sourcing kegs from your local brewery. It also increases insurance costs and liabilities (because people can get seriously hurt if they use the treadmill wrong, for example). Second, why can't companies just host multiple events instead of banning drinks for a week (and alienating people who like bars or beers or whiskeys or whatever)? What's going to stop people from hitting the bar after doing $non_alcoholic_thing? Third, nobody is holding a gun to anyone's heads telling them that they have to drink. Bars have non-alcoholic options. Choosing to drink is a _choice_. [1] https://talbottcampus.com/problem-drinking-vs-alcoholism-whats-the-difference/ https://talbottcampus.com/problem-drinking-vs-alcoholism-wha...
- sdinsn 8y agoPeople in all industries tend to drink often.
- sleepysysadmin 8y agoThe tech industry's substance abuse issues like drinking or other drugs are a terrible issue. This comes from a industry wide occupational burnout issue. Major names like Cisco, Twitch, or Nvidia have staff who are >50% burnt out. The lack of diversity has absolutely nothing to do with anything here.