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Unfortunately I don’t believe regulation would work in this case. Not because it wouldn’t be effective, but because it wouldn’t happen. People tend to wonder wh

by hoaw 8y ago

Unfortunately I don’t believe regulation would work in this case. Not because it wouldn’t be effective, but because it wouldn’t happen. People tend to wonder why e.g. Nordic unions are so strong. It is because they have real power. They have organizations, newspapers, building, cash and everything else that you need. The prime minister of Sweden was even recruited directly from being the head of a union, because of that unions long standing relationship with the party. This is why I always smirk a little bit when Americans speak out against unions like they actually would have a choice to form a an organization that would take power from the corporations and politicians. Eh, I don’t know what my point was. I guess I wouldn’t expect a solution anytime soon because it is a power issue.

unreal37 8y ago
But this is also why Silicon Valley didn't happen in Norway.
- toomuchtodo 8y ago
  Norway is probably better off by not having Silicon Valley.
- hoaw 8y ago
  No, it isn’t. SV didn’t happen anywhere in Europe, very likely because of WWII. Norway is mostly concerned about oil these days, but Sweden have been doing very well in tech for its size. Second most unicorn per capita in the world after SV is what people like to say.
  - monksy 8y ago
    Not even close. It's all down to culture and where their priorities lie. If WWII is any indication, the Germans would be very good at developing new tech. (They did it during the war) I believe that the reason why Europe has not had a good chance at a SV: 1. They don't rely on credit for the most part. Using Debit/EC cards are more previlent. 2. High taxes and cheap sources of labor: Most tech is outsourced to Eastern Europe. There is some seriously good talent there, but there's a heck of a lot that isn't great. The treatement of talent is used as a cheap cog in the machine. Hard to hire the best talent when the wages are at a particular level. 3. Strong labor unions and policies: Germany requires companies over a particular size to have representation from the labor force on the board. (This has created the wackamole in companies splitting off) 4. The regulations and monopolies are pretty strong in Europe: it's hard to compete and overthrow say sap or mediamarkt. (Although those are prime for a disruption). 5. Companies play fast and loose there. Due to strong workers rights, they're still playing tricks to prevent people from being full time. (Contractors, probation periods, etc)
    - hoaw 8y ago
      I can only say that I find it silly that you are suggesting things like German labor laws when it was a divided country, half literally communist, until 1990. Far more likely that SV is largely a result of the US lead in semiconductors which could only happen beacause of winning, or not losing, WWII. Same is actually true of Sweden as well.
    - Traster 8y ago
      You're making an argument about why Silicon Valley isn't in Europe based on your understanding of Europe today, when Silicon Valley isn't emerging in California today, it emerged in 1970. Let's take Intel as an example: Intel was founded in 1968 by Gordon Moore and Robert Noyce. Why do you think there's no European equivalent of those two people? Very possibly because Herr Moore and Monsieur Noyce would have died in WW2 or fled to America. If they had survived and started up a semi-conductor company they would've quickly found themselves unable to compete with the American companies who had the advantage of a massive military budget to win contracts and engineers from. Your point also don't address the situation in which SV emerged in the US. High taxes? Denmark has 22% corp tax and 52% income tax. Income tax when silicon valley emerged was over 70%.
travisoneill1 8y ago
I would personally hate to be in a union. I would much rather deal with the arbitrary authority of a self interested management, which is semi-meritocratic, than the stagnant seniority based hierarchy of a union.
- hoaw 8y ago
  My whole argument was essentially that you don’t have choice. So how does your wish matter? I would argue that it doesn’t since you couldn’t change it even if you wanted to. Or I guess you could say you’re in luck since you are getting exactly what you want. I mean, what is the odds of that?
  - travisoneill1 8y ago
    My wish alone doesn't matter, and why would it? I am not the only engineer. As a collective, software engineers absolutely do have a choice as you can see from the recent collective bargaining that caused Google to drop unpopular projects. Obviously that leverage extends into the realm of compensation too.
    - HarryHirsch 8y ago
      You wonder how long the software bubble will last.
    - hoaw 8y ago
      So your proposed solution is collective bargaining (which isn’t really arbitrary) as long as it isn’t actually legally protected which is what a union is? I guess that is choice, just seemingly not a very realistic one.

by hoaw 8y ago

unreal37 8y ago

But this is also why Silicon Valley didn't happen in Norway.

toomuchtodo 8y ago
Norway is probably better off by not having Silicon Valley.
hoaw 8y ago
No, it isn’t. SV didn’t happen anywhere in Europe, very likely because of WWII. Norway is mostly concerned about oil these days, but Sweden have been doing very well in tech for its size. Second most unicorn per capita in the world after SV is what people like to say.
- monksy 8y ago
  Not even close. It's all down to culture and where their priorities lie. If WWII is any indication, the Germans would be very good at developing new tech. (They did it during the war) I believe that the reason why Europe has not had a good chance at a SV: 1. They don't rely on credit for the most part. Using Debit/EC cards are more previlent. 2. High taxes and cheap sources of labor: Most tech is outsourced to Eastern Europe. There is some seriously good talent there, but there's a heck of a lot that isn't great. The treatement of talent is used as a cheap cog in the machine. Hard to hire the best talent when the wages are at a particular level. 3. Strong labor unions and policies: Germany requires companies over a particular size to have representation from the labor force on the board. (This has created the wackamole in companies splitting off) 4. The regulations and monopolies are pretty strong in Europe: it's hard to compete and overthrow say sap or mediamarkt. (Although those are prime for a disruption). 5. Companies play fast and loose there. Due to strong workers rights, they're still playing tricks to prevent people from being full time. (Contractors, probation periods, etc)
  - hoaw 8y ago
    I can only say that I find it silly that you are suggesting things like German labor laws when it was a divided country, half literally communist, until 1990. Far more likely that SV is largely a result of the US lead in semiconductors which could only happen beacause of winning, or not losing, WWII. Same is actually true of Sweden as well.
  - Traster 8y ago
    You're making an argument about why Silicon Valley isn't in Europe based on your understanding of Europe today, when Silicon Valley isn't emerging in California today, it emerged in 1970. Let's take Intel as an example: Intel was founded in 1968 by Gordon Moore and Robert Noyce. Why do you think there's no European equivalent of those two people? Very possibly because Herr Moore and Monsieur Noyce would have died in WW2 or fled to America. If they had survived and started up a semi-conductor company they would've quickly found themselves unable to compete with the American companies who had the advantage of a massive military budget to win contracts and engineers from. Your point also don't address the situation in which SV emerged in the US. High taxes? Denmark has 22% corp tax and 52% income tax. Income tax when silicon valley emerged was over 70%.

travisoneill1 8y ago

I would personally hate to be in a union. I would much rather deal with the arbitrary authority of a self interested management, which is semi-meritocratic, than the stagnant seniority based hierarchy of a union.

hoaw 8y ago
My whole argument was essentially that you don’t have choice. So how does your wish matter? I would argue that it doesn’t since you couldn’t change it even if you wanted to. Or I guess you could say you’re in luck since you are getting exactly what you want. I mean, what is the odds of that?
- travisoneill1 8y ago
  My wish alone doesn't matter, and why would it? I am not the only engineer. As a collective, software engineers absolutely do have a choice as you can see from the recent collective bargaining that caused Google to drop unpopular projects. Obviously that leverage extends into the realm of compensation too.
  - HarryHirsch 8y ago
    You wonder how long the software bubble will last.
  - hoaw 8y ago
    So your proposed solution is collective bargaining (which isn’t really arbitrary) as long as it isn’t actually legally protected which is what a union is? I guess that is choice, just seemingly not a very realistic one.