7 ms·

I'll just leave this here https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/25198208 https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/25198208

koboll 8y ago
>Of the 198 patients with CVD, 177 (89%) were adherent. Major cardiac events judged to be recurrent disease totaled one stroke in the adherent cardiovascular participants—a recurrent event rate of .6%, significantly less than reported by other studies of plant-based nutrition therapy. Thirteen of 21 (62%) nonadherent participants experienced adverse events. So... heart disease can be attributed almost entirely to eating meat? That result seems too good to be true.
- baroffoos 8y ago
  Well thats convinced me to switch my lunch plans for today.
- BadassFractal 8y ago
  How do we explain the vegans and the vegetarians who still get plenty of heart disease? If veganism were a silver bullet, I'd be the first one to jump on that bandwagon, today.
  - wyclif 8y ago
    Because the health factors that cause heart attacks aren't exclusively attributable to diet.
  - gnulinux 8y ago
    Because studies like this are sheer bullshit. There is no one "plant-based diet". Eating fat heavy (avacado, nuts, seeds, coconut, acai berry, olives etc...) and carb heavy (rice, fruits) diets and whether you eat few protein rich plant sourced (basically only beans) will have very different macronutrient, micronutrient profile and will have very different effect on human body. Same goes for animal-based diets. Moreover, people who were able to adhere to this study might have just been more disciplined and healthier. This study does not control other important risk factors such as alcohol, regular exercise etc. I find it very hard to believe we can really derive any useful information from "we forced people to eat plants". As a meat-eater I think the most stupid strawmen vegans hit me with is the belief that I only eat meat. I think very few people advocate "only eating meat" (e.g. recent 0carb hype, which I think is clearly pseudoscience). You can still eat plants but supplement your diet with meat to get more protein and healthy fats. You can still get 75% of your calories from plants but still eat meat. Also, there will be a huge difference between highly processed meat (bacon, salami etc) and unprocessed, grass-fed meat. Studies like this simply ignore all these factors.
  - yaroslavvb 8y ago
    It means that there are other factors besides diet. Here's a relevant study https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/707372 https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/707372
  - oredbored 8y ago
    Very few vegans eat whole foods, which is what was used in the study.
- mindfulplay 8y ago
  This is nearly pseudoscience.. Indians have one of the highest rates of heart attacks even though a significant population is purely vegetarian. I think science has to be focused on biology and science, not social surveys and asking questions to a small bunch of uncontrolled strangers.
  - gammateam 8y ago
    What are the likely dietary habits of people that have time for academic surveys Just college kids and mechanical turk penny vacuums So probably a little predictable
    - tomcam 8y ago
      > mechanical turk penny vacuums Wait, what's that?
      - saghm 8y ago
        Mechanical Turk is an (Amazon) crowd-sourcing site where one can post small jobs (such as surveys) to be completed for a small amount of money (often only $0.05-0.10). I assume "penny vaccums" here is a metaphor for people who complete a large number of tasks for the money. https://www.mturk.com/ https://www.mturk.com/
        tomcam 8y ago
        OK, thank you.
    - Fomite 8y ago
      Or not... "Participants This report reviews the outcomes of 198 consecutive nonsmoking patients with multiple comorbidities of hyperlipidemia (n=161), hypertension (n=60), and diabetes (n=23) who voluntarily asked for counseling in plantbased nutrition for disease treatment. These self-selected participants requested consultation after learning about the program through the Internet, the media, prior scientific publications, the senior author’s book (CBE Jr), other authors’ supportive comments, or word of mouth.2,13 A preliminary 25- to 30-minute telephone conversation established disease presentation and severity by eliciting reports of symptoms, history of MI, stress test and angiogram results, interventions undertaken, family history, lipid profile, and the presence of comorbid chronic conditions. In these calls, we outlined the program, established rapport, and documented the need for additional patient information. The Cleveland Clinic Institutional Review Board determined that these were acceptable outcome measurements to evaluate the nutrition program." "Baseline characteristics of participants are shown in Table 1. (Two patients from the original group of 200 were lost to follow-up.) The remaining 198 participants for whom data were available had CVD, were mostly men (91%), averaged 62.9 years of age, and were followed for an average of 44.2 months (3.7 years). "
- BoiledCabbage 8y ago
  Or people who weren't disciplined enough to stick/adhere to the veggie diet, likely also had other parts of their life with less than healthy discipline.
  - oredbored 8y ago
    The compliance rate was 89%, which is higher than that of statin drug therapy. If discipline was a factor, it was a very small one.
- DoreenMichele 8y ago
  So... heart disease can be attributed almost entirely to eating meat? That result seems too good to be true. If it's the study I've seen, the improvement can be largely attributed to a tremendous drop in both calories and fat. Instead of their idea of a balanced diet being a bacon double cheeseburger in each hand with a gallon of ice cream for desert, it became rice and legumes and veggies. They shot for keeping fats to no more than 10 percent. They invited participants to dinners so they could experience good tasting, healthy gourmet meals and not feel like this was about deprivation. Participants dropped tons of weight without trying and without having to try to control themselves. They could eat all they wanted every day and not get enough calories to remain clinically obese.
  - gnulinux 8y ago
    There is no correlation between fats and CVD. That's a very old belief (70s) that is debunked. Read this please: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5793267/ https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5793267/ Downvoters: Please just read the paper.
    - DoreenMichele 8y ago
      From your link: SFA is now believed to play a much smaller role in CHD than was previously believed while that of sugar, whole grains, and cereal fiber have moved in the opposite direction. Which is not the same thing as no correlation. I'm sure it's vastly more complicated than just fat content, but the stuff I've seen indicated that one study of a vegetarian diet as post cardiac therapy explicitly set a goal of keeping fat content down to 10%. Prior to being put on a vegetarian diet, the typical diet of participants was much, much fattier. Participants were just blown away at being able to eat all they wanted for the first time in their lives and lose weight without even trying. My personal experience: I dropped several dress sizes without intending to by completely ignoring both calories and fat percentage and focusing on consuming nutritionally dense foods to redress known nutrient deficiencies. So I have absolutely no doubt that it's vastly more complicated. But I tend to get a lot of flak for talking about what I think about diet, the gut biome, medical stuff, etc. So I really wasn't looking to get into that. I was only looking to add a little more information about such studies. The main takeaway as I understand it: they stopped being obese. There are people who eat meat who are not obese.
- dmead 8y ago
  No. That kind of heart disease can be cleared by not eating meat. many heart diseases have nothing to do with blood chemistry. source: i have valves turning to shit and never had a problem with blockages or high cholesterol.

>Of the 198 patients with CVD, 177 (89%) were adherent. Major cardiac events judged to be recurrent disease totaled one stroke in the adherent cardiovascular participants—a recurrent event rate of .6%, significantly less than reported by other studies of plant-based nutrition therapy. Thirteen of 21 (62%) nonadherent participants experienced adverse events. So... heart disease can be attributed almost entirely to eating meat? That result seems too good to be true.

baroffoos 8y ago
Well thats convinced me to switch my lunch plans for today.
BadassFractal 8y ago
How do we explain the vegans and the vegetarians who still get plenty of heart disease? If veganism were a silver bullet, I'd be the first one to jump on that bandwagon, today.
- wyclif 8y ago
  Because the health factors that cause heart attacks aren't exclusively attributable to diet.
- gnulinux 8y ago
  Because studies like this are sheer bullshit. There is no one "plant-based diet". Eating fat heavy (avacado, nuts, seeds, coconut, acai berry, olives etc...) and carb heavy (rice, fruits) diets and whether you eat few protein rich plant sourced (basically only beans) will have very different macronutrient, micronutrient profile and will have very different effect on human body. Same goes for animal-based diets. Moreover, people who were able to adhere to this study might have just been more disciplined and healthier. This study does not control other important risk factors such as alcohol, regular exercise etc. I find it very hard to believe we can really derive any useful information from "we forced people to eat plants". As a meat-eater I think the most stupid strawmen vegans hit me with is the belief that I only eat meat. I think very few people advocate "only eating meat" (e.g. recent 0carb hype, which I think is clearly pseudoscience). You can still eat plants but supplement your diet with meat to get more protein and healthy fats. You can still get 75% of your calories from plants but still eat meat. Also, there will be a huge difference between highly processed meat (bacon, salami etc) and unprocessed, grass-fed meat. Studies like this simply ignore all these factors.
- yaroslavvb 8y ago
  It means that there are other factors besides diet. Here's a relevant study https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/707372 https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/707372
- oredbored 8y ago
  Very few vegans eat whole foods, which is what was used in the study.
mindfulplay 8y ago
This is nearly pseudoscience.. Indians have one of the highest rates of heart attacks even though a significant population is purely vegetarian. I think science has to be focused on biology and science, not social surveys and asking questions to a small bunch of uncontrolled strangers.
- gammateam 8y ago
  What are the likely dietary habits of people that have time for academic surveys Just college kids and mechanical turk penny vacuums So probably a little predictable
  - tomcam 8y ago
    > mechanical turk penny vacuums Wait, what's that?
    - saghm 8y ago
      Mechanical Turk is an (Amazon) crowd-sourcing site where one can post small jobs (such as surveys) to be completed for a small amount of money (often only $0.05-0.10). I assume "penny vaccums" here is a metaphor for people who complete a large number of tasks for the money. https://www.mturk.com/ https://www.mturk.com/
      - tomcam 8y ago
        OK, thank you.
  - Fomite 8y ago
    Or not... "Participants This report reviews the outcomes of 198 consecutive nonsmoking patients with multiple comorbidities of hyperlipidemia (n=161), hypertension (n=60), and diabetes (n=23) who voluntarily asked for counseling in plantbased nutrition for disease treatment. These self-selected participants requested consultation after learning about the program through the Internet, the media, prior scientific publications, the senior author’s book (CBE Jr), other authors’ supportive comments, or word of mouth.2,13 A preliminary 25- to 30-minute telephone conversation established disease presentation and severity by eliciting reports of symptoms, history of MI, stress test and angiogram results, interventions undertaken, family history, lipid profile, and the presence of comorbid chronic conditions. In these calls, we outlined the program, established rapport, and documented the need for additional patient information. The Cleveland Clinic Institutional Review Board determined that these were acceptable outcome measurements to evaluate the nutrition program." "Baseline characteristics of participants are shown in Table 1. (Two patients from the original group of 200 were lost to follow-up.) The remaining 198 participants for whom data were available had CVD, were mostly men (91%), averaged 62.9 years of age, and were followed for an average of 44.2 months (3.7 years). "
BoiledCabbage 8y ago
Or people who weren't disciplined enough to stick/adhere to the veggie diet, likely also had other parts of their life with less than healthy discipline.
- oredbored 8y ago
  The compliance rate was 89%, which is higher than that of statin drug therapy. If discipline was a factor, it was a very small one.
DoreenMichele 8y ago
So... heart disease can be attributed almost entirely to eating meat? That result seems too good to be true. If it's the study I've seen, the improvement can be largely attributed to a tremendous drop in both calories and fat. Instead of their idea of a balanced diet being a bacon double cheeseburger in each hand with a gallon of ice cream for desert, it became rice and legumes and veggies. They shot for keeping fats to no more than 10 percent. They invited participants to dinners so they could experience good tasting, healthy gourmet meals and not feel like this was about deprivation. Participants dropped tons of weight without trying and without having to try to control themselves. They could eat all they wanted every day and not get enough calories to remain clinically obese.
- gnulinux 8y ago
  There is no correlation between fats and CVD. That's a very old belief (70s) that is debunked. Read this please: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5793267/ https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5793267/ Downvoters: Please just read the paper.
  - DoreenMichele 8y ago
    From your link: SFA is now believed to play a much smaller role in CHD than was previously believed while that of sugar, whole grains, and cereal fiber have moved in the opposite direction. Which is not the same thing as no correlation. I'm sure it's vastly more complicated than just fat content, but the stuff I've seen indicated that one study of a vegetarian diet as post cardiac therapy explicitly set a goal of keeping fat content down to 10%. Prior to being put on a vegetarian diet, the typical diet of participants was much, much fattier. Participants were just blown away at being able to eat all they wanted for the first time in their lives and lose weight without even trying. My personal experience: I dropped several dress sizes without intending to by completely ignoring both calories and fat percentage and focusing on consuming nutritionally dense foods to redress known nutrient deficiencies. So I have absolutely no doubt that it's vastly more complicated. But I tend to get a lot of flak for talking about what I think about diet, the gut biome, medical stuff, etc. So I really wasn't looking to get into that. I was only looking to add a little more information about such studies. The main takeaway as I understand it: they stopped being obese. There are people who eat meat who are not obese.
dmead 8y ago
No. That kind of heart disease can be cleared by not eating meat. many heart diseases have nothing to do with blood chemistry. source: i have valves turning to shit and never had a problem with blockages or high cholesterol.