5 ms·

Their own legibility study shows it's about around the same as Verdana: https://i.imgur.com/M0C3TkY.png https://i.imgur.com/M0C3TkY.png (excerpt from the PDF in

Their own legibility study shows it's about around the same as Verdana: https://i.imgur.com/M0C3TkY.png https://i.imgur.com/M0C3TkY.png (excerpt from the PDF in the download .zip, vertical axis is misidentifications). Their design goal was beating their current font (CDS), which seems a bit of a sandbagged goal if you look at the sample in the report. I wonder if we've reached a plateau of legibility for technical fonts after identifying the easy wins in typeface design for screens.

jessriedel 8y ago
Not disagreeing, but note that Verdana requires a license for certain kinds of commercial use (I think). https://www.fonts.com/font/microsoft-corporation/verdana/licenses https://www.fonts.com/font/microsoft-corporation/verdana/lic...
Alex3917 8y ago
> I wonder if we've reached a plateau of legibility for technical fonts after identifying the easy wins in typeface design for screens. I mean most likely the real design goal was to create a cool futuristic looking typeface that would make the planes themselves feel more technologically advanced. I have no doubt legibility was one of the main requirements, but let's not kid ourselves on why this was really commissioned. They did a great job though. I'm not a typography expert or even a designer, but to my untrained eye this looks like one of the most original and visually impressive typefaces I've seen in a while.
vonseel 8y ago
I’m surprised there’s a need for this kind of thing or even much of a difference between most sans serif fonts. It seems there are dozens if not hundreds of open source programming fonts which are all quite legible.
- ncmncm 8y ago
  Indeed, and none as legible as a serviceable serif font. Legibility was a solved problem literally centuries ago.
  - zimpenfish 8y ago
    > Legibility was a solved problem literally centuries ago. For print, maybe? But digital displays are a whole different kettle of fish which didn't exist centuries ago.
    - mrec 8y ago
      How much of sans-serif's digital advantage was predicated on low-resolution displays compared to print? (Not a rhetorical question; I'm genuinely curious. What was true for NTSC-interlaced isn't necessarily true for 8K.)
- Alex3917 8y ago
  > I’m surprised there’s a need for this kind of thing or even much of a difference between most sans serif fonts. I mean look how asymmetrical the characters in this typeface are compared to almost every other sans serif typeface. The way the body of the characters flairs out opposite the ink traps is pretty wild. It almost looks like it was designed using deep learning or something, because how the hell could any human possibly come up with those forms.
  - dotancohen 8y ago
    Take a look at some of the "dyslexic" fonts. The asymmetry is very useful in dynamic situations: low/high/variable G environment, shaking, smoke in cockpit, O2 mask on, loud noises, lost eyewear, multiple distractions (alarms), etc.
  - vonseel 8y ago
    Huh? I wouldn't even notice it's a special font if not for the fact that I clicked the article to their website because it was on HN. The edges of the characters look slightly different to me, but otherwise it just looks like most other sans-serif fonts to me. Maybe I need to get my eyes checked. (although last time I went doctor said I had better-than perfect vision in both eyes)
    - executesorder66 8y ago
      Nope. There's nothing wrong with your eyes. Some people are just better at noticing certain things, compared to others.
    - thanatropism 8y ago
      Assuming you're in your 30s, statistics says your hearing is about the same as mine, but my ability to distinguish chords is better. (Meaning: if I had to bet either way, I'd say this - I could lose the bet.)
lifthrasiir 8y ago
You have mistaken the development version (V0.2) for the final version. A subsequent graph in page 13 shows that there had been indeed a big improvement over CDS.
- garmaine 8y ago
  You misread the post, as you are both saying the same thing.
  - lifthrasiir 8y ago
    I guess I'm not good at reading nuances ;-) As you can see from the originally linked plot, B612 V0.2 is not universally better than Verdana (say, t is much worse). The original paper also states (p. 13) that the plot was used to guide the development, so they clearly knew that V0.2 is not as optimal. Henceforth I have assumed that the OP thinks B612 tried to optimize easier bits (explicit) and did it badly (implied). I should have been overly sarcastic...
seizethecheese 8y ago
For those not aware, Verdana happens to be the font Hacker News uses.
- bhaak 8y ago
  If you have Verdana. Otherwise the fallbacks are Geneva and then sans-serif.
- aritmo 8y ago
  But is Verdana provided as a webfont? On mobile, almost no one can see Verdana.
  - chrisseaton 8y ago
    > On mobile, almost no one can see Verdana. But it's included in iOS (http://iosfonts.com http://iosfonts.com)?
- yellowapple 8y ago
  For me, Hacker News uses whatever I have set as my sans-serif font, which at the moment happens to be B612.

jessriedel 8y ago

Not disagreeing, but note that Verdana requires a license for certain kinds of commercial use (I think). https://www.fonts.com/font/microsoft-corporation/verdana/licenses https://www.fonts.com/font/microsoft-corporation/verdana/lic...

Alex3917 8y ago

> I wonder if we've reached a plateau of legibility for technical fonts after identifying the easy wins in typeface design for screens. I mean most likely the real design goal was to create a cool futuristic looking typeface that would make the planes themselves feel more technologically advanced. I have no doubt legibility was one of the main requirements, but let's not kid ourselves on why this was really commissioned. They did a great job though. I'm not a typography expert or even a designer, but to my untrained eye this looks like one of the most original and visually impressive typefaces I've seen in a while.

vonseel 8y ago

I’m surprised there’s a need for this kind of thing or even much of a difference between most sans serif fonts. It seems there are dozens if not hundreds of open source programming fonts which are all quite legible.

ncmncm 8y ago
Indeed, and none as legible as a serviceable serif font. Legibility was a solved problem literally centuries ago.
- zimpenfish 8y ago
  > Legibility was a solved problem literally centuries ago. For print, maybe? But digital displays are a whole different kettle of fish which didn't exist centuries ago.
  - mrec 8y ago
    How much of sans-serif's digital advantage was predicated on low-resolution displays compared to print? (Not a rhetorical question; I'm genuinely curious. What was true for NTSC-interlaced isn't necessarily true for 8K.)
Alex3917 8y ago
> I’m surprised there’s a need for this kind of thing or even much of a difference between most sans serif fonts. I mean look how asymmetrical the characters in this typeface are compared to almost every other sans serif typeface. The way the body of the characters flairs out opposite the ink traps is pretty wild. It almost looks like it was designed using deep learning or something, because how the hell could any human possibly come up with those forms.
- dotancohen 8y ago
  Take a look at some of the "dyslexic" fonts. The asymmetry is very useful in dynamic situations: low/high/variable G environment, shaking, smoke in cockpit, O2 mask on, loud noises, lost eyewear, multiple distractions (alarms), etc.
- vonseel 8y ago
  Huh? I wouldn't even notice it's a special font if not for the fact that I clicked the article to their website because it was on HN. The edges of the characters look slightly different to me, but otherwise it just looks like most other sans-serif fonts to me. Maybe I need to get my eyes checked. (although last time I went doctor said I had better-than perfect vision in both eyes)
  - executesorder66 8y ago
    Nope. There's nothing wrong with your eyes. Some people are just better at noticing certain things, compared to others.
  - thanatropism 8y ago
    Assuming you're in your 30s, statistics says your hearing is about the same as mine, but my ability to distinguish chords is better. (Meaning: if I had to bet either way, I'd say this - I could lose the bet.)

lifthrasiir 8y ago

You have mistaken the development version (V0.2) for the final version. A subsequent graph in page 13 shows that there had been indeed a big improvement over CDS.

garmaine 8y ago
You misread the post, as you are both saying the same thing.
- lifthrasiir 8y ago
  I guess I'm not good at reading nuances ;-) As you can see from the originally linked plot, B612 V0.2 is not universally better than Verdana (say, t is much worse). The original paper also states (p. 13) that the plot was used to guide the development, so they clearly knew that V0.2 is not as optimal. Henceforth I have assumed that the OP thinks B612 tried to optimize easier bits (explicit) and did it badly (implied). I should have been overly sarcastic...

seizethecheese 8y ago

For those not aware, Verdana happens to be the font Hacker News uses.

bhaak 8y ago
If you have Verdana. Otherwise the fallbacks are Geneva and then sans-serif.
aritmo 8y ago
But is Verdana provided as a webfont? On mobile, almost no one can see Verdana.
- chrisseaton 8y ago
  > On mobile, almost no one can see Verdana. But it's included in iOS (http://iosfonts.com http://iosfonts.com)?
yellowapple 8y ago
For me, Hacker News uses whatever I have set as my sans-serif font, which at the moment happens to be B612.