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It's sort of embarrassing this is the number one story on hacker news. Especially since it's 6 weeks old and was already posted before, and mostly seems fabrica

It's sort of embarrassing this is the number one story on hacker news. Especially since it's 6 weeks old and was already posted before, and mostly seems fabricated. It reads like some fat kid ender's game revenge fantasy. I guess maybe this is what happens in white suburban schools? Cuz fights in the schools where I used to teach math would end up with kids in the hospital or dead. Or, I guess I don't really know, because both parties would both never come back to school. I guess if Bobby Bully is putting beans in your pants you can try your karate kid routine on him. Maybe Eye of The Tiger will start playing and after you make him cry by ballet kicking him in the nose you and Elisabeth Shue can go share a milkshake at Pop's and then make out at the drive in. But in real life Jesus and Jose and their 20 cousins and homies just show up after school and steal all your clothes, your bike, your money and throw you into the dumpster. I guess I don't ever really believe these stories, because whenever i've seen someone fight back it just turned into a drawn out war, not some fairytale DeGrassi afterschool special outcome where the bully "learned his place"

pyre 16y ago
That just depends on whether or not the bully has friends. There were plenty of kids that bullied me in school that, looking back, didn't have some huge posse to back them up. That said, all of the "I was about to beat up a mob boss in Hong Kong because I'm so cool like that" was over the top (i.e. probably fake).
deleted 16y ago
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pjscott 16y ago
Realistically, I don't think the point is to make the bully stop bullying, or even to win a fight. The point is to convince him to find an easier target.
- Jach 16y ago
  Maybe the point should shift to the former. I'd feel awful if I knew my hitting a bully back just made him go pick on some other kid instead of me. We should be trying to change his behavior, not deflect your problems onto someone else.
  - zaphar 16y ago
    You have about as much chance of changing his behavior by taking a beating and then talking to him as you do of winning the lottery. Talking alone does almost nothing. Now if you defend yourself and then treat the bully like a human being and even try to be a friend you might make some headway.
    - Jach 16y ago
      You may have replied to the wrong comment of mine, as my above comment didn't suggest that talking is the only way to change his behavior. Legal threats work very well, too, as do messages from their parents. When you suggest defending yourself, and then trying to be helpful in making the bully no longer a bully, that's a completely different strategy than what others are suggesting, one I wouldn't mind seeing tried out more! What others are suggesting is just beat the bully and now he's someone else's problem.
      - zaphar 16y ago
        your right I was replying to the wrong comment. While I may have educated my children in how to defend themselves. I have also taught them that every individual has value. My hope is that they understand the aggressor is also valuable enough treat with respect.
  - Symmetry 16y ago
    Changing the behavior of bullies is the responsibility of adults, not the child being bullied. Of course we should be trying to change his behavior, but throwing that demand on your kid as he's being bullied is irresponsible.
    - Jach 16y ago
      I think it's the responsibility of everyone involved. This is why I don't like solutions which claim "The kid needs to learn independence, teach him how to do a chokehold and let him take it from there." or "The kid can sit back and let the adults handle things."
invisible 16y ago
I really think that while what you say is true in certain circumstances, in my "suburban school" when bullies finally have to defend themselves, they often stop after bullying that fight. Some people respond differently to violence, but I think if I ever have kids I'd prefer not to live somewhere that I have to worry continuously about "Jesus and Jose and their 20 cousins and homies" pilfering, assault or worse to a future child over a few bruises.
cullenking 16y ago
I will agree the author sounds like he is living in fantasy land, but, fighting back can and does work. I was a picked on band nerd in middle school, and finally snapped on two kids who pushed me around after school. I knocked one out with my clarinet case to his head and got in a tumble with the other. I wasn't bothered after that, even though I was still the same annoying easy to pick on personality. There was no outright war either, which I doubt happens except in the most undisciplined urban settings...
viraptor 16y ago
> Cuz fights in the schools where I used to teach math would end up with kids in the hospital or dead. I guess not all schools are the same. There is no way this would happen in any school I went to. Such school wouldn't probably even exist for a long time. Tbh, if such incident happened more than once, it would probably end up on national news. Then again, I'm not in US. Sure, there were bullies, but what you describe is just as completely foreign concept as your experience is to me.
- josh33 16y ago
  These schools definitely exist in the US. Our news focusses on the sensational, yes, but not all Americans have the same amount of respect for 'Jose and Jesus' as they do for 'Christopher and Ryan'. It's unfortunate, but many schools in Compton, California or the ghettos of New York, or the slums of New Orleans struggle with very real gang threats targeted at middle and high schoolers. I always find it interesting trying to decipher which murder trials hit the news here and which never see media coverage. I don't know where the bias comes from exactly, but it exists.
JabavuAdams 16y ago
Why do you feel the need to dismiss others' suffering, because it wasn't hard-core enough? Is locking the skinny kid in a locker until he pisses himself real bullying? Is one kid holding another one down while a second one punches him real bullying? It may not be guns, knives and chains, but the suffering is real. Also, what makes this kind of middle-class bullying worse is that A) it's not expected -- it's different from the rest of these kids' lives, which are non-violent B) educated middle-class parents give their kids bad advice like "don't fight back, violence doesn't solve anything".
_pius 16y ago
"I guess maybe this is what happens in white suburban schools?" "[I]n real life Jesus and Jose and their 20 cousins and homies just show up ..." Jesus and Jose? Homies? Just. Stop. Was it really necessary to inject some sort of pathetic, dogwhistle racial component into this? Why are you trying to cast a universal problem like bullying into a phenomenon where the scary minorities are picking on white kids?
- neworbit 16y ago
  Curious assumption that it's the white kids who are getting picked on...
  - _pius 16y ago
    That was the implication, yes.
- maxawaytoolong 16y ago
  Why did you assume I meant white kids were getting picked on? What? I specifically said I was NOT teaching in white, suburban schools.
  - _pius 16y ago
    Even if I got that part wrong, the main point stands. Definitely no need to make this a discussion about "José" and his "homies."
- vorg 16y ago
  Are we just talking about the US here? Perhaps Canada and Australia have a similar situation, but I'd imagine every country/region has a different story. The blog writer, though, was in Hong Kong, where even teachers get bullied by students in high school. Cross the border into the mainland, and the bully will keep themselves well hidden, using proxies to do the dirty work.
sangaya 16y ago
There's a wide variety of schools in the US and it sounds like you're at one of the worst. I went to school at a suburb of Chicago where two friends died by being shot by gang members (Latin Kings), a kid that sat in front of me in Spanish murdered his girlfriend and went to prison, and drug deals were common in the hallways. But standing up to bullies was still better than backing down. That said, the gang members were rarely if ever the bullies; not unless they suspected you were in a rival gang. The bullies were the kids that wanted a power trip, mainly the Seniors and mainly the sports guys. If you give in you're doomed to be giving up your money or whatever again and again and again. You fight back, and that's usually going to be the end of it. People that fight back aren't fun; the weak ones that cry and give you stuff, that's where the fun is. The bullies want a reward with little effort. The gangs usually have a personal vendetta against you, your family, your different gang, your race, or something else. That's a whole different issue and one that's not dealt with in the same simple way. Don't confuse gangs and bullies, they're two very different beasts.
lionhearted 16y ago
> It's sort of embarrassing this is the number one story on hacker news. Especially since it's 6 weeks old and was already posted before, and mostly seems fabricated. I'm as surprised as you are that it's #1 on HN - I posted it to my blog for my readers, I didn't think it'd get submitted as a top level post or rise up the frontpage. That said, everything on my end is real - I was quoting another author who said he was bullied quite badly, and his story sounds true but I can't confirm that. > It reads like some fat kid ender's game revenge fantasy. Eh, there's no need to be nasty, that doesn't add to the conversation. The entry is all true. Plenty of people here know me, I can run my schools and dates by someone if anyone really cares. Good luck to you.
deleted 16y ago
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LaGrange 16y ago
This. I wasn't in an elementary school that bad (Radom, Poland). Still, the young bullies were friends with elder bullies. Some bullies were repeating years, and that meant there was no way I could get as big as them. And, the bullies actually do know how to fight. Actually, for me, being nice worked out just right. After some time, the few bullies that bothered me found themselves enemies of the school, including some other bullies. Serves them right.

pyre 16y ago

That just depends on whether or not the bully has friends. There were plenty of kids that bullied me in school that, looking back, didn't have some huge posse to back them up. That said, all of the "I was about to beat up a mob boss in Hong Kong because I'm so cool like that" was over the top (i.e. probably fake).

deleted 16y ago

[deleted]

pjscott 16y ago

Realistically, I don't think the point is to make the bully stop bullying, or even to win a fight. The point is to convince him to find an easier target.

Jach 16y ago
Maybe the point should shift to the former. I'd feel awful if I knew my hitting a bully back just made him go pick on some other kid instead of me. We should be trying to change his behavior, not deflect your problems onto someone else.
- zaphar 16y ago
  You have about as much chance of changing his behavior by taking a beating and then talking to him as you do of winning the lottery. Talking alone does almost nothing. Now if you defend yourself and then treat the bully like a human being and even try to be a friend you might make some headway.
  - Jach 16y ago
    You may have replied to the wrong comment of mine, as my above comment didn't suggest that talking is the only way to change his behavior. Legal threats work very well, too, as do messages from their parents. When you suggest defending yourself, and then trying to be helpful in making the bully no longer a bully, that's a completely different strategy than what others are suggesting, one I wouldn't mind seeing tried out more! What others are suggesting is just beat the bully and now he's someone else's problem.
    - zaphar 16y ago
      your right I was replying to the wrong comment. While I may have educated my children in how to defend themselves. I have also taught them that every individual has value. My hope is that they understand the aggressor is also valuable enough treat with respect.
- Symmetry 16y ago
  Changing the behavior of bullies is the responsibility of adults, not the child being bullied. Of course we should be trying to change his behavior, but throwing that demand on your kid as he's being bullied is irresponsible.
  - Jach 16y ago
    I think it's the responsibility of everyone involved. This is why I don't like solutions which claim "The kid needs to learn independence, teach him how to do a chokehold and let him take it from there." or "The kid can sit back and let the adults handle things."

invisible 16y ago

I really think that while what you say is true in certain circumstances, in my "suburban school" when bullies finally have to defend themselves, they often stop after bullying that fight. Some people respond differently to violence, but I think if I ever have kids I'd prefer not to live somewhere that I have to worry continuously about "Jesus and Jose and their 20 cousins and homies" pilfering, assault or worse to a future child over a few bruises.

cullenking 16y ago

I will agree the author sounds like he is living in fantasy land, but, fighting back can and does work. I was a picked on band nerd in middle school, and finally snapped on two kids who pushed me around after school. I knocked one out with my clarinet case to his head and got in a tumble with the other. I wasn't bothered after that, even though I was still the same annoying easy to pick on personality. There was no outright war either, which I doubt happens except in the most undisciplined urban settings...

viraptor 16y ago

> Cuz fights in the schools where I used to teach math would end up with kids in the hospital or dead. I guess not all schools are the same. There is no way this would happen in any school I went to. Such school wouldn't probably even exist for a long time. Tbh, if such incident happened more than once, it would probably end up on national news. Then again, I'm not in US. Sure, there were bullies, but what you describe is just as completely foreign concept as your experience is to me.

josh33 16y ago
These schools definitely exist in the US. Our news focusses on the sensational, yes, but not all Americans have the same amount of respect for 'Jose and Jesus' as they do for 'Christopher and Ryan'. It's unfortunate, but many schools in Compton, California or the ghettos of New York, or the slums of New Orleans struggle with very real gang threats targeted at middle and high schoolers. I always find it interesting trying to decipher which murder trials hit the news here and which never see media coverage. I don't know where the bias comes from exactly, but it exists.

JabavuAdams 16y ago

Why do you feel the need to dismiss others' suffering, because it wasn't hard-core enough? Is locking the skinny kid in a locker until he pisses himself real bullying? Is one kid holding another one down while a second one punches him real bullying? It may not be guns, knives and chains, but the suffering is real. Also, what makes this kind of middle-class bullying worse is that A) it's not expected -- it's different from the rest of these kids' lives, which are non-violent B) educated middle-class parents give their kids bad advice like "don't fight back, violence doesn't solve anything".

_pius 16y ago

"I guess maybe this is what happens in white suburban schools?" "[I]n real life Jesus and Jose and their 20 cousins and homies just show up ..." Jesus and Jose? Homies? Just. Stop. Was it really necessary to inject some sort of pathetic, dogwhistle racial component into this? Why are you trying to cast a universal problem like bullying into a phenomenon where the scary minorities are picking on white kids?

neworbit 16y ago
Curious assumption that it's the white kids who are getting picked on...
- _pius 16y ago
  That was the implication, yes.
maxawaytoolong 16y ago
Why did you assume I meant white kids were getting picked on? What? I specifically said I was NOT teaching in white, suburban schools.
- _pius 16y ago
  Even if I got that part wrong, the main point stands. Definitely no need to make this a discussion about "José" and his "homies."
vorg 16y ago
Are we just talking about the US here? Perhaps Canada and Australia have a similar situation, but I'd imagine every country/region has a different story. The blog writer, though, was in Hong Kong, where even teachers get bullied by students in high school. Cross the border into the mainland, and the bully will keep themselves well hidden, using proxies to do the dirty work.

sangaya 16y ago

There's a wide variety of schools in the US and it sounds like you're at one of the worst. I went to school at a suburb of Chicago where two friends died by being shot by gang members (Latin Kings), a kid that sat in front of me in Spanish murdered his girlfriend and went to prison, and drug deals were common in the hallways. But standing up to bullies was still better than backing down. That said, the gang members were rarely if ever the bullies; not unless they suspected you were in a rival gang. The bullies were the kids that wanted a power trip, mainly the Seniors and mainly the sports guys. If you give in you're doomed to be giving up your money or whatever again and again and again. You fight back, and that's usually going to be the end of it. People that fight back aren't fun; the weak ones that cry and give you stuff, that's where the fun is. The bullies want a reward with little effort. The gangs usually have a personal vendetta against you, your family, your different gang, your race, or something else. That's a whole different issue and one that's not dealt with in the same simple way. Don't confuse gangs and bullies, they're two very different beasts.

lionhearted 16y ago

> It's sort of embarrassing this is the number one story on hacker news. Especially since it's 6 weeks old and was already posted before, and mostly seems fabricated. I'm as surprised as you are that it's #1 on HN - I posted it to my blog for my readers, I didn't think it'd get submitted as a top level post or rise up the frontpage. That said, everything on my end is real - I was quoting another author who said he was bullied quite badly, and his story sounds true but I can't confirm that. > It reads like some fat kid ender's game revenge fantasy. Eh, there's no need to be nasty, that doesn't add to the conversation. The entry is all true. Plenty of people here know me, I can run my schools and dates by someone if anyone really cares. Good luck to you.

deleted 16y ago

[deleted]

LaGrange 16y ago

This. I wasn't in an elementary school that bad (Radom, Poland). Still, the young bullies were friends with elder bullies. Some bullies were repeating years, and that meant there was no way I could get as big as them. And, the bullies actually do know how to fight. Actually, for me, being nice worked out just right. After some time, the few bullies that bothered me found themselves enemies of the school, including some other bullies. Serves them right.