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Amazon made online shopping feel safe and comfortable, at least mechanically, where once the risk of being scammed by bad actors felt huge Maybe this was true

Amazon made online shopping feel safe and comfortable, at least mechanically, where once the risk of being scammed by bad actors felt huge Maybe this was true once, but now Amazon has brought back that fear and confusion of getting scammed. You used to be able to count on reviews for some idea of the quality of the product, but now you need to do research at someplace like www.fakespot.com to see if the reviews are fake. And even if the product is legit and works well and it's fulfilled by Amazon, when you get the product you need to check it carefully to see if it's a counterfeit knockoff that some vendor sold through amazon's commingled inventory. I've switched to https://www.bhphotovideo.com/ https://www.bhphotovideo.com/ for most of my computer/electronics purchases now - they seem to price match Amazon automatically (or maybe amazon price matches them, many products have an identical price) and delivery is almost always within 2 - 3 days. I used to go to newegg, but have had a few issues with their third party sellers (product never shipped after ordering) so stopped going there.

NullPrefix 8y ago
Previously you were risking getting your card stolen by a shady seller. Now you're risking of getting your payment stolen. Bad product/no product delivered could be seen as equivalent to stole payment. It's an improvement, isn't it?
- roywiggins 8y ago
  PayPal solved that problem already though, right?
  - tedmiston 8y ago
    Not necessarily. Card theft, yes; bad/no product is fuzzy. If a shady seller can prove delivery of a package to the buyer, it becomes much harder for the buyer to get through winning a dispute irrespective of what the package's contents were. Particularly if the merchandise is counterfeit but definitely proving that it's counterfeit is difficult. Also with forum commerce for used things, it's difficult to sort out "this item isn't is the condition that was communicated to me". If the seller can't prove delivery, then the buyer wins almost hands down. On the flip side, an unscrupulous buyer can use this to their advantage with international shipping where it is extraordinarily difficult (and expensive) to prove delivery all the way to the destination across different country's mailing services.
    - jstarfish 8y ago
      That is not my experience. Paypal always sides with the buyer independent of any evidence presented. Having proof of delivery did not help any of my cases. Things were still claimed lost and I would be forced to eat the cost. Paying for signature confirmation just changed the nature of the buyer's claims to concealed damage, or they just signed it illegibly, insist it wasn't them, and still claimed it lost. All it helped were a few cases where I was able to make insurance claims with the carrier but it never got me anywhere with Paypal. I hear power sellers get more credibility.
bonestamp2 8y ago
Also no sales tax at B&H for a lot of people. Of course, in some states, you're still supposed to pay the state sales tax directly when you do your income tax. I used to do this with amazon before they collected sales tax in my state. They allow you to download your purchase history (csv format) and see which items you didn't pay tax on so it's easy to calculate that line item on state taxes.
- albertgoeswoof 8y ago
  As a non-American this seems like a ridiculously complicated tax system.
  - klipt 8y ago
    It's because each of the 50 states administrates its own sales tax (or lack thereof).
    - vinay427 8y ago
      Yes, but some cities and counties also have their own sales taxes, though this isn't why sellers don't charge sales taxes. They don't charge them because they can get away with (or believe it is legal to) not charge sales tax for customers not in the state or area from which they operate.
      - wbl 8y ago
        It was until very recently.
  - vinay427 8y ago
    1. This doesn't happen for the vast majority of sites, which charge the appropriate sales tax rate based on the shipping address location. Amazon individual sellers are inconsistent, but every major retailer handles it well within the bounds of the law. The issue came about partly because it was and is still often believed that one isn't obligated to pay sales tax if the shipper/seller isn't located in the same state, though the legality of this varies at best. Regardless, this isn't the "tax system" but rather the negligence of Amazon. 2. In the country where I currently live, if I order something from another country I am charged the tax on import plus a substantial processing fee that's usually much larger than the tax. I miss the US system in comparison...
NegativeK 8y ago
Amazon's counterfeit problem seems like something they're not taking seriously enough. For a laser printer or a lamp, sure -- I'll buy from Amazon and deal with the return if I ever get screwed. But for climbing gear, of which I've bought quite a bit of, I simply won't touch Amazon. I haven't heard of counterfeit (versus obvious trash, which exists but is different) climbing goods on Amazon, but I simply can't risk it.
- malandrew 8y ago
  Yup. For pretty much all outdoor gear I go to Backcountry or REI. Can't risk counterfeits for technical products where specs matter.
  - pl0x 8y ago
    It's getting so out of hand to the point where most products have all fake reviews.
  - tedmiston 8y ago
    Plus REI's ~~lifetime~~ one-year return policy is much more generous than Amazon's. Not to mention the annual member dividend.
    - Johnny555 8y ago
      What's a "lifetime one-year return policy"?
      - seniorsassycat 8y ago
        Poster expected to cross out lifetime because REI changed their lifetime return policy to a one year policy.
        roganartu 8y ago
        To expand on this: REI used to have a lifetime, no-questions-asked return policy. They changed it (sometime in the past few years, unsure I've only been in the US for a little over one now) to a 1 year no-questions-asked policy. This does not include things on clearance (they call it REI Garage sales online) as this is (as I understand it) mostly the returned items being resold to recoup costs. Clearance items (and electronics too) have a 90 day return policy instead. I often pay full price at REI instead if cheaper elsewhere because of the generous return policy so I guess it works.
Nelkins 8y ago
The startup I work for, Masse[0], is attempting to solve this issue. More or less a platform for product reviews with a social network component to see exactly who is recommending a product. I've written a little about it here [1][2]. [0] https://masse.app/ https://masse.app/ [1] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=18441347 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=18441347 [2] https://www.reddit.com/r/fsharp/comments/9wpw84/introducing_masse_a_new_shopping_platform/ https://www.reddit.com/r/fsharp/comments/9wpw84/introducing_...
- johntiger1 8y ago
  Why the downvotes?
  - Johnny555 8y ago
    I didn't downvote, but probably because it sounds like an ad.
- tedmiston 8y ago
  > Product recommendations from people you trust Why do I trust user reviews on your site more than user reviews on any other site? Or is this assuming that my some of friends have already become users and we will only look at each others' reviews? It would be nice if you could "glue" together one's reviews across all third party sites.
  - Nelkins 8y ago
    Yes, your "feed" is populated with answers and questions about products from the people you follow. We give a few people who you can opt to follow when onboarding. Because you can see other users who answered a question asked by someone you follow, and see the question answered by someone you follow, you can be exposed to new users (who you can then follow). You're more likely to trust user reviews on this site because the reviews are likely to be coming from people who you are connected to in some way. We haven't been around too long (launched mid-November, have a team of 7: 1 iOS, 2 backend eningeers, and product/marketing/community folks, plus a few contractors), but we'll be rolling out more features to help evaluate the trustworthiness of the reviews that users see.
bradleyjg 8y ago
> I used to go to newegg, but have had a few issues with their third party sellers (product never shipped after ordering) so stopped going there. I have zero interest in shopping a platform. I didn’t like ebay one bit. I’d be perfectly happy to buy from amazon or newegg but if they insist on making it difficult to do that I’ll go elsewhere. I’m not even saying they can’t be a platform, just make it easy for me to turn that part off.
finaliteration 8y ago
A lot of people like to disparage Best Buy but I’ve found the stores in my area to be excellent and the staff to always be friendly and helpful. They’ll also price match Amazon in most cases. Their PC components selection isn’t huge, but for things like consoles, games, peripherals, etc., I feel like they’re great. They also offer one-hour pickup and in some cases will even give you a discount if you choose that over shipping.
- e40 8y ago
  For a lot of stuff, I agree. For certain things, though, Best Buy is a complete ripoff. I once went to get an HDMI cable and all that had was a $100 gold plated one. I walked up to the guy in that department and told him I knew this was a scam and he agreed. I told him I'd not buy anything from them and wait the 2 days to get a $5 one from Amazon. Best Buy isn't doing themselves any favors by this behavior. There's a mom and pop computer store down the street. I went in for a USB cable that I really needed and ended up paying > $20 for that should have been less than $5. I never went back.
  - rblatz 8y ago
    I’m not sure when you had this experience but Best Buy has wised up and started offering reasonably priced cables. They now sell HDMI cables starting at $9.99 https://www.bestbuy.com/site/dynex-4-hdmi-cable-black/6165873.p?skuId=6165873 https://www.bestbuy.com/site/dynex-4-hdmi-cable-black/616587...
    - Wowfunhappy 8y ago
      Whoa, that's new! Even as of a couple years ago, all their HDMI cables cost a good 5x what was reasonable. I was going to note that $10 for a 4 foot cable, while fairly reasonable, still isn't a great price. But, there's also this[1] one, which is $7, supports 4K, and is 6 feet long. And, both of these are cables are actually available at my local store for immediate pickup. [1] https://www.bestbuy.com/site/dynex-6-4k-ultra-hd-hdmi-cable-black/7525078.p?skuId=7525078 https://www.bestbuy.com/site/dynex-6-4k-ultra-hd-hdmi-cable-...
tossaccount123 8y ago
legally every Amazon warehouse should be seized by the Feds for knowingly helping to ship counterfeit goods across state lines. That's what happens to other retailers who do this[1]. Luckily, Bezos owns the Washington Post, has a 600 million dollar contract with the CIA, and is close to signing a 10 billion dollar contract with the Department of Defense. The new HQ in DC probably helps grease those hands as well 1. https://www.nytimes.com/2018/08/16/nyregion/fake-luxury-goods-handbags.html https://www.nytimes.com/2018/08/16/nyregion/fake-luxury-good...
- Johnny555 8y ago
  You'd have to prove that they knew ahead of time that they were selling counterfeit products rather than having been duped by an unscrupulous supplier, and I'm sure they have the paperwork to "prove" that the supplier sent them legit product. Note that the article you linked to doesn't mention Amazon at all -- if Amazon was part of that counterfeit scheme, you'd think the NYTimes would be happy to get in a dig at the owner of the Washington Post if they could.
  - LeifCarrotson 8y ago
    Why is that the standard of proof? Other retailers don't seem to get the "our supplier lied and we didn't bother checking" as an excuse. I guess you could argue that Amazon is in a unique position somewhere between, say, Craigslist (which simply allows independent sellers to connect with buyers and should bear little responsibility for counterfeits) and an old-fashioned mom-and-pop (which buys goods directly, choosing legitimate or illegitimate wholesalers and handling the merchandise). But everyone is in-between these days. And the time for a defense from ignorance is long past...
    - Johnny555 8y ago
      "Other retailers don't seem to get the "our supplier lied and we didn't bother checking" as an excuse" Are you sure? The linked article said that the retailers that were busted were part of the scheme, doesn't sound like they were innocent bystanders that were cheated by the distributors. Three retail businesses in Queens and two in Manhattan were part of the scheme, Mr. Melendez said, adding that they had closed
_bxg1 8y ago
Yeah- and really, I think PayPal has done more to make online shopping feel safe and comfortable than Amazon. It means you can use those little-guy websites without fear of credit card fraud. They even offer purchase-protection.
b3b0p 8y ago
It's gotten to the point that it feels like a version or intermediary for Aliexpress.
- adetrest 8y ago
  That's how I see it. Amazon is aliexpress with a 4 or 5x markup and delivery within a week.
deleted 8y ago
[deleted]
unethical_ban 8y ago
With Newegg, I definitely filter on "Seller: Newegg". I don't like that they've become a generic broker, lowering their standards and promoting poor service and counterfeiting.

NullPrefix 8y ago

Previously you were risking getting your card stolen by a shady seller. Now you're risking of getting your payment stolen. Bad product/no product delivered could be seen as equivalent to stole payment. It's an improvement, isn't it?

roywiggins 8y ago
PayPal solved that problem already though, right?
- tedmiston 8y ago
  Not necessarily. Card theft, yes; bad/no product is fuzzy. If a shady seller can prove delivery of a package to the buyer, it becomes much harder for the buyer to get through winning a dispute irrespective of what the package's contents were. Particularly if the merchandise is counterfeit but definitely proving that it's counterfeit is difficult. Also with forum commerce for used things, it's difficult to sort out "this item isn't is the condition that was communicated to me". If the seller can't prove delivery, then the buyer wins almost hands down. On the flip side, an unscrupulous buyer can use this to their advantage with international shipping where it is extraordinarily difficult (and expensive) to prove delivery all the way to the destination across different country's mailing services.
  - jstarfish 8y ago
    That is not my experience. Paypal always sides with the buyer independent of any evidence presented. Having proof of delivery did not help any of my cases. Things were still claimed lost and I would be forced to eat the cost. Paying for signature confirmation just changed the nature of the buyer's claims to concealed damage, or they just signed it illegibly, insist it wasn't them, and still claimed it lost. All it helped were a few cases where I was able to make insurance claims with the carrier but it never got me anywhere with Paypal. I hear power sellers get more credibility.

bonestamp2 8y ago

Also no sales tax at B&H for a lot of people. Of course, in some states, you're still supposed to pay the state sales tax directly when you do your income tax. I used to do this with amazon before they collected sales tax in my state. They allow you to download your purchase history (csv format) and see which items you didn't pay tax on so it's easy to calculate that line item on state taxes.

albertgoeswoof 8y ago
As a non-American this seems like a ridiculously complicated tax system.
- klipt 8y ago
  It's because each of the 50 states administrates its own sales tax (or lack thereof).
  - vinay427 8y ago
    Yes, but some cities and counties also have their own sales taxes, though this isn't why sellers don't charge sales taxes. They don't charge them because they can get away with (or believe it is legal to) not charge sales tax for customers not in the state or area from which they operate.
    - wbl 8y ago
      It was until very recently.
- vinay427 8y ago
  1. This doesn't happen for the vast majority of sites, which charge the appropriate sales tax rate based on the shipping address location. Amazon individual sellers are inconsistent, but every major retailer handles it well within the bounds of the law. The issue came about partly because it was and is still often believed that one isn't obligated to pay sales tax if the shipper/seller isn't located in the same state, though the legality of this varies at best. Regardless, this isn't the "tax system" but rather the negligence of Amazon. 2. In the country where I currently live, if I order something from another country I am charged the tax on import plus a substantial processing fee that's usually much larger than the tax. I miss the US system in comparison...

NegativeK 8y ago

Amazon's counterfeit problem seems like something they're not taking seriously enough. For a laser printer or a lamp, sure -- I'll buy from Amazon and deal with the return if I ever get screwed. But for climbing gear, of which I've bought quite a bit of, I simply won't touch Amazon. I haven't heard of counterfeit (versus obvious trash, which exists but is different) climbing goods on Amazon, but I simply can't risk it.

malandrew 8y ago
Yup. For pretty much all outdoor gear I go to Backcountry or REI. Can't risk counterfeits for technical products where specs matter.
- pl0x 8y ago
  It's getting so out of hand to the point where most products have all fake reviews.
- tedmiston 8y ago
  Plus REI's ~~lifetime~~ one-year return policy is much more generous than Amazon's. Not to mention the annual member dividend.
  - Johnny555 8y ago
    What's a "lifetime one-year return policy"?
    - seniorsassycat 8y ago
      Poster expected to cross out lifetime because REI changed their lifetime return policy to a one year policy.
      - roganartu 8y ago
        To expand on this: REI used to have a lifetime, no-questions-asked return policy. They changed it (sometime in the past few years, unsure I've only been in the US for a little over one now) to a 1 year no-questions-asked policy. This does not include things on clearance (they call it REI Garage sales online) as this is (as I understand it) mostly the returned items being resold to recoup costs. Clearance items (and electronics too) have a 90 day return policy instead. I often pay full price at REI instead if cheaper elsewhere because of the generous return policy so I guess it works.

Nelkins 8y ago

The startup I work for, Masse[0], is attempting to solve this issue. More or less a platform for product reviews with a social network component to see exactly who is recommending a product. I've written a little about it here [1][2]. [0] https://masse.app/ https://masse.app/ [1] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=18441347 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=18441347 [2] https://www.reddit.com/r/fsharp/comments/9wpw84/introducing_masse_a_new_shopping_platform/ https://www.reddit.com/r/fsharp/comments/9wpw84/introducing_...

johntiger1 8y ago
Why the downvotes?
- Johnny555 8y ago
  I didn't downvote, but probably because it sounds like an ad.
tedmiston 8y ago
> Product recommendations from people you trust Why do I trust user reviews on your site more than user reviews on any other site? Or is this assuming that my some of friends have already become users and we will only look at each others' reviews? It would be nice if you could "glue" together one's reviews across all third party sites.
- Nelkins 8y ago
  Yes, your "feed" is populated with answers and questions about products from the people you follow. We give a few people who you can opt to follow when onboarding. Because you can see other users who answered a question asked by someone you follow, and see the question answered by someone you follow, you can be exposed to new users (who you can then follow). You're more likely to trust user reviews on this site because the reviews are likely to be coming from people who you are connected to in some way. We haven't been around too long (launched mid-November, have a team of 7: 1 iOS, 2 backend eningeers, and product/marketing/community folks, plus a few contractors), but we'll be rolling out more features to help evaluate the trustworthiness of the reviews that users see.

bradleyjg 8y ago

> I used to go to newegg, but have had a few issues with their third party sellers (product never shipped after ordering) so stopped going there. I have zero interest in shopping a platform. I didn’t like ebay one bit. I’d be perfectly happy to buy from amazon or newegg but if they insist on making it difficult to do that I’ll go elsewhere. I’m not even saying they can’t be a platform, just make it easy for me to turn that part off.

finaliteration 8y ago

A lot of people like to disparage Best Buy but I’ve found the stores in my area to be excellent and the staff to always be friendly and helpful. They’ll also price match Amazon in most cases. Their PC components selection isn’t huge, but for things like consoles, games, peripherals, etc., I feel like they’re great. They also offer one-hour pickup and in some cases will even give you a discount if you choose that over shipping.

e40 8y ago
For a lot of stuff, I agree. For certain things, though, Best Buy is a complete ripoff. I once went to get an HDMI cable and all that had was a $100 gold plated one. I walked up to the guy in that department and told him I knew this was a scam and he agreed. I told him I'd not buy anything from them and wait the 2 days to get a $5 one from Amazon. Best Buy isn't doing themselves any favors by this behavior. There's a mom and pop computer store down the street. I went in for a USB cable that I really needed and ended up paying > $20 for that should have been less than $5. I never went back.
- rblatz 8y ago
  I’m not sure when you had this experience but Best Buy has wised up and started offering reasonably priced cables. They now sell HDMI cables starting at $9.99 https://www.bestbuy.com/site/dynex-4-hdmi-cable-black/6165873.p?skuId=6165873 https://www.bestbuy.com/site/dynex-4-hdmi-cable-black/616587...
  - Wowfunhappy 8y ago
    Whoa, that's new! Even as of a couple years ago, all their HDMI cables cost a good 5x what was reasonable. I was going to note that $10 for a 4 foot cable, while fairly reasonable, still isn't a great price. But, there's also this[1] one, which is $7, supports 4K, and is 6 feet long. And, both of these are cables are actually available at my local store for immediate pickup. [1] https://www.bestbuy.com/site/dynex-6-4k-ultra-hd-hdmi-cable-black/7525078.p?skuId=7525078 https://www.bestbuy.com/site/dynex-6-4k-ultra-hd-hdmi-cable-...

tossaccount123 8y ago

legally every Amazon warehouse should be seized by the Feds for knowingly helping to ship counterfeit goods across state lines. That's what happens to other retailers who do this[1]. Luckily, Bezos owns the Washington Post, has a 600 million dollar contract with the CIA, and is close to signing a 10 billion dollar contract with the Department of Defense. The new HQ in DC probably helps grease those hands as well 1. https://www.nytimes.com/2018/08/16/nyregion/fake-luxury-goods-handbags.html https://www.nytimes.com/2018/08/16/nyregion/fake-luxury-good...

Johnny555 8y ago
You'd have to prove that they knew ahead of time that they were selling counterfeit products rather than having been duped by an unscrupulous supplier, and I'm sure they have the paperwork to "prove" that the supplier sent them legit product. Note that the article you linked to doesn't mention Amazon at all -- if Amazon was part of that counterfeit scheme, you'd think the NYTimes would be happy to get in a dig at the owner of the Washington Post if they could.
- LeifCarrotson 8y ago
  Why is that the standard of proof? Other retailers don't seem to get the "our supplier lied and we didn't bother checking" as an excuse. I guess you could argue that Amazon is in a unique position somewhere between, say, Craigslist (which simply allows independent sellers to connect with buyers and should bear little responsibility for counterfeits) and an old-fashioned mom-and-pop (which buys goods directly, choosing legitimate or illegitimate wholesalers and handling the merchandise). But everyone is in-between these days. And the time for a defense from ignorance is long past...
  - Johnny555 8y ago
    "Other retailers don't seem to get the "our supplier lied and we didn't bother checking" as an excuse" Are you sure? The linked article said that the retailers that were busted were part of the scheme, doesn't sound like they were innocent bystanders that were cheated by the distributors. Three retail businesses in Queens and two in Manhattan were part of the scheme, Mr. Melendez said, adding that they had closed

_bxg1 8y ago

Yeah- and really, I think PayPal has done more to make online shopping feel safe and comfortable than Amazon. It means you can use those little-guy websites without fear of credit card fraud. They even offer purchase-protection.

b3b0p 8y ago

It's gotten to the point that it feels like a version or intermediary for Aliexpress.

adetrest 8y ago
That's how I see it. Amazon is aliexpress with a 4 or 5x markup and delivery within a week.

deleted 8y ago

[deleted]

unethical_ban 8y ago

With Newegg, I definitely filter on "Seller: Newegg". I don't like that they've become a generic broker, lowering their standards and promoting poor service and counterfeiting.