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The author stated the meaning of "dark forest": > civilizations fear one another so much that they don’t dare to reveal themselves lest they immediately be con

The author stated the meaning of "dark forest": > civilizations fear one another so much that they don’t dare to reveal themselves lest they immediately be considered a potential threat and destroyed and then completely misuses the term, instead talking about how consumers of technology are suspicious of creators of technology.

evrydayhustling 8y ago
Not to mention the metaphor-breaking fact that this suspicion in no way keeps folks from adopting tech... It just generates this vestigial reactionary news cycle while they do.
forkLding 8y ago
This is probably a better explanation by the guys at Bigthink: https://bigthink.com/scotty-hendricks/the-dark-forest-theory-a-terrifying-explanation-of-why-we-havent-heard-from-aliens-yet https://bigthink.com/scotty-hendricks/the-dark-forest-theory...
- southerndrift 8y ago
  >The universe is a dark forest. Every civilization is an armed hunter stalking through the trees like a ghost, gently pushing aside branches that block the path and trying to tread without sound. Even breathing is done with care. The hunter has to be careful, because everywhere in the forest are stealthy hunters like him. If he finds another life—another hunter, angel, or a demon, a delicate infant to tottering old man, a fairy or demigod—there’s only one thing he can do: open fire and eliminate them. Very interesting. What this theory doesn't take into account are the non-hunters. A single farmer is at risk in a world full of hunters - see Robinson Crusoe. However, a village full of farmers who can store heavy weapons in their houses has almost nothing to fear from a small group of hunters. If each but one civilization dies in a hunter universe, making noises is worth the risk to meet others who are willing to cooperate.
  - forkLding 8y ago
    Yea it's basically applied game theory because you are never sure if another player wants to cooperate and if they truly mean to cooperate or are just waiting to backstab you once your guard is lowered so you end up competing against others for your own interests even though cooperation is the best outcome.
    - southerndrift 8y ago
      They don't have much time to backstab you. Once there are several civilizations cooperating, the backstabber is up against everybody else. Cooperation means you trade your minimal chance of winning a winner-takes-it-all game for the risk of meeting a player who doesn't understand that cooperation is the best move. Given that the other players are space-exploring civilization, I would say that they at least give us the chance to cooperate. The problem may be that it's not them being evil but us being unable to cooperate.
  - deleted 8y ago
    [deleted]
  - scarejunba 8y ago
    In the context of the story, destruction is vastly cheaper than protection. Imagine the same system except everyone has instant access to a perfectly guided bunker buster. It doesn't matter if you're better armed. The bunker buster will bust your bunker. And while you need to discover to bust bunkers likewise you only have to be discovered to have your bunker busted. So the farmers die instantly even if they find others like them to band together. The darkness of the forest is key too. I imagine the effect is similar to the effect air power had on castles.
    - southerndrift 8y ago
      If you cooperate you have two bunkers so you have a second strike on whoever attacked you unnoticed.
      - 8y ago
- mr_toad 8y ago
  > The reasoning is laid out best in the science fiction novel The Dark Forest, by Liu Cixin. It annoys me than no credit is given to earlier authors who covered almost exactly the same ground, including Fred Saberhagen, Greg Bear, and Alistair Renyolds. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Berserker_(Saberhagen) https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Berserker_(Saberhagen) https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Forge_of_God https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Forge_of_God https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Revelation_Space https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Revelation_Space

evrydayhustling 8y ago

Not to mention the metaphor-breaking fact that this suspicion in no way keeps folks from adopting tech... It just generates this vestigial reactionary news cycle while they do.

forkLding 8y ago

This is probably a better explanation by the guys at Bigthink: https://bigthink.com/scotty-hendricks/the-dark-forest-theory-a-terrifying-explanation-of-why-we-havent-heard-from-aliens-yet https://bigthink.com/scotty-hendricks/the-dark-forest-theory...

southerndrift 8y ago
>The universe is a dark forest. Every civilization is an armed hunter stalking through the trees like a ghost, gently pushing aside branches that block the path and trying to tread without sound. Even breathing is done with care. The hunter has to be careful, because everywhere in the forest are stealthy hunters like him. If he finds another life—another hunter, angel, or a demon, a delicate infant to tottering old man, a fairy or demigod—there’s only one thing he can do: open fire and eliminate them. Very interesting. What this theory doesn't take into account are the non-hunters. A single farmer is at risk in a world full of hunters - see Robinson Crusoe. However, a village full of farmers who can store heavy weapons in their houses has almost nothing to fear from a small group of hunters. If each but one civilization dies in a hunter universe, making noises is worth the risk to meet others who are willing to cooperate.
- forkLding 8y ago
  Yea it's basically applied game theory because you are never sure if another player wants to cooperate and if they truly mean to cooperate or are just waiting to backstab you once your guard is lowered so you end up competing against others for your own interests even though cooperation is the best outcome.
  - southerndrift 8y ago
    They don't have much time to backstab you. Once there are several civilizations cooperating, the backstabber is up against everybody else. Cooperation means you trade your minimal chance of winning a winner-takes-it-all game for the risk of meeting a player who doesn't understand that cooperation is the best move. Given that the other players are space-exploring civilization, I would say that they at least give us the chance to cooperate. The problem may be that it's not them being evil but us being unable to cooperate.
- deleted 8y ago
  [deleted]
- scarejunba 8y ago
  In the context of the story, destruction is vastly cheaper than protection. Imagine the same system except everyone has instant access to a perfectly guided bunker buster. It doesn't matter if you're better armed. The bunker buster will bust your bunker. And while you need to discover to bust bunkers likewise you only have to be discovered to have your bunker busted. So the farmers die instantly even if they find others like them to band together. The darkness of the forest is key too. I imagine the effect is similar to the effect air power had on castles.
  - southerndrift 8y ago
    If you cooperate you have two bunkers so you have a second strike on whoever attacked you unnoticed.
    - 8y ago
mr_toad 8y ago
> The reasoning is laid out best in the science fiction novel The Dark Forest, by Liu Cixin. It annoys me than no credit is given to earlier authors who covered almost exactly the same ground, including Fred Saberhagen, Greg Bear, and Alistair Renyolds. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Berserker_(Saberhagen) https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Berserker_(Saberhagen) https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Forge_of_God https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Forge_of_God https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Revelation_Space https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Revelation_Space