5 ms·

I am conflicted on who is correct regarding a healthy diet. Need help

7 points by nikivi 8y ago

I've been a follower of whole food plant based diet rich in plants, vegetables and beans thanks partly to [Nutrition Facts](https://nutritionfacts.org) and Dr. Michael Greger's extensive articles/videos backed by what I thought was research. I knew he had vegan bias but after coming in contact with these two pieces below: - [Your Brain on Plants: Micronutrients and Mental Health](http://www.diagnosisdiet.com/micronutrients-mental-health/) - [EAT-Lancet's Plant-based Planet: 10 Things You Need to Know](https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog/diagnosis-diet/201901/eat-lancets-plant-based-planet-10-things-you-need-know) Specifically the first article. It argues strongly that there can't be a healthy diet without consuming some kind of animal food. I am not a nutritionist and I care deeply about animals and the ethics of consuming animal products. But having said that I am confused and don't get who is actually correct. Is whole food plant based diet actually damaging to my body and I am losing out on very important micro and macro nutrients by not eating animal food? I am considering becoming pescetarian if that is indeed the case. Thank you for any comments on the matter.

jrmg 8y ago
As far as I can tell, no one knows for sure. Everyone has their bias, and tries to sound as sure of themselves as possible, often for financial reasons (buying books, reading their blog which has ads, promoting products, etc.) So I try to do what makes the most sense to me. I eat a large variety of foods, so as not to leave out any nutrition. Lots of vegetables, some fruits, some nuts, lots of fish, and a little red meat. I'm honestly not too worried about the impact of meat in my diet is. I eat very little red meat, maybe one serving every couple of weeks. And I think lab grown meat is going to be indistinguishable from traditional in the next 5 years both in price and taste/texture. How much of an impact am I alone going to have anyway? As for the ethics of it, I sleep fine at night.
- nikivi 8y ago
  The problem is that the thinking of 'I am just one person, how much impact does doing .. really have?' is dangerous. Because such thinking compounds where everyone can start thinking that (where in reality no one even questions the impact their actions have) and thus no change is ever made (and in this case animals still suffer on a global scale). I honestly think knowing the things we know about the meat industry and complete disregard for animal rights that the current world has, it is unwise to go to a supermarket and buy nicely packaged meat on the shelf. Although my question wasn't about ethics of it but about health. I am just curious if that is indeed the case that whole food plant based diet is not enough to support a fully healthy human life.
  - yohann305 8y ago
    I think the best thing to do is to study what the longest living populations eat. There's a new post slightly above yours that theorizes a high carb diet may be correlated to Okinawans longevity.
onetimemanytime 8y ago
I think we used meat as species. But use with moderation, since we now can buy as much as we want and when we want. Unless you have a special disease, exercise and be done. Moderate all kinds of foods. Don't eat late at night. You will die one day, regardless of diet.
- nikivi 8y ago
  One thing I am optimizing for is health and specifically the rate at which I can absorb and retain information. Amongst other things like overall well being and capacity to do sports and other activities. Ideally I want a diet that allowed me to maximize that without supporting the animal slaughterhouses built around the globe. Until today, I thought I found this perfect diet (whole food plant based). But now with these two articles I mentioned, I am confused who is actually correct. And sure, we all die one day, I just want to live a good life with least negative impact on other living beings and environment whilst still being the healthiest I can be. Hence this HN thread asking for opinions on how to achieve this.
perfmode 8y ago
If you are worried, then continue to eat a small amount of meat. But be thoughtful about how it is sourced. And try to have respect for the animals you decide to consume. A few years ago, Zuck challenged himself to only eat animals he himself killed. There is something admirable and redemptive in that way of being. Not saying to copy... just saying...
wsc981 8y ago
I think it's difficult to give the right answer. For example the daughter of Jordan Peterson had a lot of health issues, but her health issues have been gone once she switched to an all-meat diet [0]. What works well for one person, might not work at all for another I guess. I personally feel it's best to listen to your body and avoid eating too much sugar, cause we know for sure the harmful effects of eating too much sugar. Intermittent fasting however seems to have some beneficial effects, so with regards to your diet, you might want to try that: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JxjMdqevE88 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JxjMdqevE88 --- [0]: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jDEwblGDz2Y https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jDEwblGDz2Y [1]: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JxjMdqevE88 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JxjMdqevE88
- emit_time 8y ago
  An all-meat (carnivore) diet turns out to be a hell of an elimination diet, which probably explains the large impact on their well-being.
personal 8y ago
I can only offer personal anecdotes. I was on many different diets since I was very little. I've been a strict vegan and a carnivore and gluten-free and diary-free, bla, bla ... way before any of these were fashionable. Everyone of these diets had their drawbacks. For example, veganism left me frail and weak whereas all-meat carnivorism did make me rail-thin, strong and agile, yet gave me terrible breath and complexion, not to mention digestive issues. Now I eat everything (fried stuff in moderation, though) and do intermittent fasting. So far it works for me. My body took very well to time restrictions as opposed to food restrictions. YMMV.
eaenki 8y ago
The DNA with a closest match to ours is chimpanzees' DNA with a 99.9% match. From our jaw to our stomach we're the same. Approx. 90% fruit, 9% vegetables, 1% insects and honey. End of the story.
- masonic 8y ago
  You're unaware that chimpanzees eat meat?
emit_time 8y ago
I feel like we do not know the answer 100% for sure. But from what I know eating vegan is totally safe if you watch your micro nutrients. ---- Speculation below ---- (corrections and comments welcome) Doing double blinded control trials with diets over the long term is impossible, and there are so many confounding variables with diet study. Also, as Peter Attia likes to talk about, there is a lot of variation from person to person. I follow Rhonda Patrick and Peter Attia, and it's very interesting to hear what they have to say, and they are clearly smart individuals who are consistent, and really try to do their best with looking at diet. Also, I trust their intentions and the way they approach these problems, unlike certain other people. (I believe consistency is one of the best ways to point out issues in the way someone evaluates evidence, and to now use them as a reference source) I think part of the issue comes down to if you want to be on the cutting edge, you have to take risk, because at the leading edge there isn't enough evidence to be 100% sure. It's interesting to see vegans and keto type people degree with each other, because it shows two group of people who are convinced their way is best. Things that are popular right now seem to be keto, vegan, various forms of fasting, and omega 3. Peter Attia likes to talk about keeping blood sugar, and therefore insulin low, which I think has a good amount of evidence behind it, but good luck getting a continuous glucose monitor. I think we can pretty much all agree on avoiding too much red meat, processed foods, and sugar is generally going to get some of the largest results. There is also a lot of talk about fasting. It seems like eating in a smaller window is best, but at the same time we don't 100% know. If I were trying to eat an optimal diet, I think I'd side on the low sugar (and trying to minimize blood sugar), lots of plants, a little bit of meat (not much red meat), eating within a small window, low mounts of (or no) alcohol. We are becoming aware of the many issues with scientific studies, and dietary studies may be some of the worse. Additionally, things that we discover on mice (and other animals) often don't translate to humans well. I think with a vegan diet you have to be careful that you are getting all your nutrients, but I haven't seen much evidence against it. Some notable vegans include Alex Honnold (Free Solo, first person to climb El Capitan without a rope and harness), Clarence Kennedy (insanely strong weightlifter, freak of nature; he does steroids, but still is extremely strong given his body weight), Scott Jurek (one of the fastest people to complete a 2000 trail, Appalachian Trail). These are people at the extremes of performance. I think at the end of the day it depends on how much risk you want to take, and how much time you want to invest in this. At some point you can spend more time optimizing your diet than the gains you get from those things. Also, individual variation can be huge between the way ones body processes things.

7 points by nikivi 8y ago

jrmg 8y ago

As far as I can tell, no one knows for sure. Everyone has their bias, and tries to sound as sure of themselves as possible, often for financial reasons (buying books, reading their blog which has ads, promoting products, etc.) So I try to do what makes the most sense to me. I eat a large variety of foods, so as not to leave out any nutrition. Lots of vegetables, some fruits, some nuts, lots of fish, and a little red meat. I'm honestly not too worried about the impact of meat in my diet is. I eat very little red meat, maybe one serving every couple of weeks. And I think lab grown meat is going to be indistinguishable from traditional in the next 5 years both in price and taste/texture. How much of an impact am I alone going to have anyway? As for the ethics of it, I sleep fine at night.

nikivi 8y ago
The problem is that the thinking of 'I am just one person, how much impact does doing .. really have?' is dangerous. Because such thinking compounds where everyone can start thinking that (where in reality no one even questions the impact their actions have) and thus no change is ever made (and in this case animals still suffer on a global scale). I honestly think knowing the things we know about the meat industry and complete disregard for animal rights that the current world has, it is unwise to go to a supermarket and buy nicely packaged meat on the shelf. Although my question wasn't about ethics of it but about health. I am just curious if that is indeed the case that whole food plant based diet is not enough to support a fully healthy human life.
- yohann305 8y ago
  I think the best thing to do is to study what the longest living populations eat. There's a new post slightly above yours that theorizes a high carb diet may be correlated to Okinawans longevity.

onetimemanytime 8y ago

I think we used meat as species. But use with moderation, since we now can buy as much as we want and when we want. Unless you have a special disease, exercise and be done. Moderate all kinds of foods. Don't eat late at night. You will die one day, regardless of diet.

nikivi 8y ago
One thing I am optimizing for is health and specifically the rate at which I can absorb and retain information. Amongst other things like overall well being and capacity to do sports and other activities. Ideally I want a diet that allowed me to maximize that without supporting the animal slaughterhouses built around the globe. Until today, I thought I found this perfect diet (whole food plant based). But now with these two articles I mentioned, I am confused who is actually correct. And sure, we all die one day, I just want to live a good life with least negative impact on other living beings and environment whilst still being the healthiest I can be. Hence this HN thread asking for opinions on how to achieve this.

perfmode 8y ago

If you are worried, then continue to eat a small amount of meat. But be thoughtful about how it is sourced. And try to have respect for the animals you decide to consume. A few years ago, Zuck challenged himself to only eat animals he himself killed. There is something admirable and redemptive in that way of being. Not saying to copy... just saying...

wsc981 8y ago

I think it's difficult to give the right answer. For example the daughter of Jordan Peterson had a lot of health issues, but her health issues have been gone once she switched to an all-meat diet [0]. What works well for one person, might not work at all for another I guess. I personally feel it's best to listen to your body and avoid eating too much sugar, cause we know for sure the harmful effects of eating too much sugar. Intermittent fasting however seems to have some beneficial effects, so with regards to your diet, you might want to try that: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JxjMdqevE88 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JxjMdqevE88 --- [0]: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jDEwblGDz2Y https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jDEwblGDz2Y [1]: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JxjMdqevE88 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JxjMdqevE88

emit_time 8y ago
An all-meat (carnivore) diet turns out to be a hell of an elimination diet, which probably explains the large impact on their well-being.

personal 8y ago

I can only offer personal anecdotes. I was on many different diets since I was very little. I've been a strict vegan and a carnivore and gluten-free and diary-free, bla, bla ... way before any of these were fashionable. Everyone of these diets had their drawbacks. For example, veganism left me frail and weak whereas all-meat carnivorism did make me rail-thin, strong and agile, yet gave me terrible breath and complexion, not to mention digestive issues. Now I eat everything (fried stuff in moderation, though) and do intermittent fasting. So far it works for me. My body took very well to time restrictions as opposed to food restrictions. YMMV.

eaenki 8y ago

The DNA with a closest match to ours is chimpanzees' DNA with a 99.9% match. From our jaw to our stomach we're the same. Approx. 90% fruit, 9% vegetables, 1% insects and honey. End of the story.

masonic 8y ago
You're unaware that chimpanzees eat meat?

emit_time 8y ago

I feel like we do not know the answer 100% for sure. But from what I know eating vegan is totally safe if you watch your micro nutrients. ---- Speculation below ---- (corrections and comments welcome) Doing double blinded control trials with diets over the long term is impossible, and there are so many confounding variables with diet study. Also, as Peter Attia likes to talk about, there is a lot of variation from person to person. I follow Rhonda Patrick and Peter Attia, and it's very interesting to hear what they have to say, and they are clearly smart individuals who are consistent, and really try to do their best with looking at diet. Also, I trust their intentions and the way they approach these problems, unlike certain other people. (I believe consistency is one of the best ways to point out issues in the way someone evaluates evidence, and to now use them as a reference source) I think part of the issue comes down to if you want to be on the cutting edge, you have to take risk, because at the leading edge there isn't enough evidence to be 100% sure. It's interesting to see vegans and keto type people degree with each other, because it shows two group of people who are convinced their way is best. Things that are popular right now seem to be keto, vegan, various forms of fasting, and omega 3. Peter Attia likes to talk about keeping blood sugar, and therefore insulin low, which I think has a good amount of evidence behind it, but good luck getting a continuous glucose monitor. I think we can pretty much all agree on avoiding too much red meat, processed foods, and sugar is generally going to get some of the largest results. There is also a lot of talk about fasting. It seems like eating in a smaller window is best, but at the same time we don't 100% know. If I were trying to eat an optimal diet, I think I'd side on the low sugar (and trying to minimize blood sugar), lots of plants, a little bit of meat (not much red meat), eating within a small window, low mounts of (or no) alcohol. We are becoming aware of the many issues with scientific studies, and dietary studies may be some of the worse. Additionally, things that we discover on mice (and other animals) often don't translate to humans well. I think with a vegan diet you have to be careful that you are getting all your nutrients, but I haven't seen much evidence against it. Some notable vegans include Alex Honnold (Free Solo, first person to climb El Capitan without a rope and harness), Clarence Kennedy (insanely strong weightlifter, freak of nature; he does steroids, but still is extremely strong given his body weight), Scott Jurek (one of the fastest people to complete a 2000 trail, Appalachian Trail). These are people at the extremes of performance. I think at the end of the day it depends on how much risk you want to take, and how much time you want to invest in this. At some point you can spend more time optimizing your diet than the gains you get from those things. Also, individual variation can be huge between the way ones body processes things.