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If it is so stupid, explain this to me. 1. Who actually needs boutique gear? I am not saying it isn't fun. I am not saying that it can't be a hobby in itself n

by hoaw 8y ago

If it is so stupid, explain this to me. 1. Who actually needs boutique gear? I am not saying it isn't fun. I am not saying that it can't be a hobby in itself nor am I saying some tiny percentage of the music industry might need it. But in pretty much all the interviews I have read with successful musician they use something horribly mundane for most of their career, because it isn't about the gear. So does the weekend warrior need boutique stuff? 2. Is teenage engineering actually boutique? I don't know that much about music gear, but I do know a fair bit about electronics and it certainly doesn't look in anyway custom to me. You might think that it is because e.g. they use bare PCBs. But that would be a faulty assumption. So what is expensive part here?

robbyt 8y ago
I'd guess that the design is the most expensive part of building these products. Their marketing for this product is arguably better than Apple. The design for the actual product is unparalleled. The electronics and software development, years spent on prototyping iterations, and overall refinement is expensive in terms of highly skilled labor.
- hoaw 8y ago
  That is what I am saying though. If you spend a ton of money and time on marketing and product development don't have people essentially pretend to be building it. Or say that it is modular when the case seemingly only supports your modules.
  - neom 8y ago
    TE have a staff of less than 50. They do everything themselves (outside of fab) end to end. They are trying to build a new way of making music, like lego, more accessible for more people, they are a startup, building a platform. Chill.
    - hoaw 8y ago
      Don't worry I wouldn't be writing if I didn't find it interesting. I do think it is a pretty important issue. Can countries like Sweden actually produce companies that do the things you say they do these days? I, just as you, would of course like to see that. What I am trying to establish is whether that is actually true. No one here has actually said, as far as I can tell, that I am wrong for a specific reason. Not that this indicate that I would be right. About a decade ago everyone in Sweden was talking about the fashion scene, as in brands and designer, making it in the world. To which the head of H&M responded that most brands didn't even have the revenue of one of their stores. Heard of any large Swedish fashion brands lately? (I am sure they exist, just nowhere near expectations). There is whole world out there not pretending. I hate to see something, or someplace, I know lose because they were.
      - neom 8y ago
        There are like 11 people in Sweden, so they need about 6 teenage engineersingingings to be ok for a bit. Just like there are 11 people in Canada and it's mandated by law, tax dollars are contributed, to pumping out a 1 Justin Bieber a year. These industries in small developed nations are fine and awesome, and maybe TE will be the Ikea of Lego of Music. Surly this is getting into a very very different conversation than if TE are boutique or make good tools, no?
        hoaw 8y ago
        It is a tangent for sure, but I would say a very different conversation as we are discussing wheter it is hype or not. When countries like Sweden produce international successes it is because substance matters. That is the absolute essence of why that happens. When Markus Persson created Minecraft he did so after a career in the games industry, which goes back to even the demo scene of the 80s(?). He of course had a lot of personal qualities as well, but he didn't come out of nowhere. No one does. A very similar scenario is behind other successes like Spotify, Klarna or even Skype. You can look at e.g. Switzerland for a country that doesn't produce these type of success. So whether they create something of substance is entire essential for whether they succeed or not to create something bigger. Maybe marketing is that substance, but I doubt it. Most likely they will go along for a few years, maybe sell for a low but respectable amount and that will be it. And yes, this is all "in my opinion".
woah 8y ago
1. What does that have to do with the question at hand? Boutique gear is expensive because not many people buy it. As you were saying, the cost is not in the production, but in the development and tooling setup for a given product. Whether or not someone "really needs" it is a different question. I will say that most all modular analog fm synthesis gear is expensive, and it can produce sounds that are not possible in software (or not possible on current CPUs without setting a really high latency). You may not find examples of extreme fm synthesis enjoyable but they are a key part of some genres of music: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q26LR5SJ2jU&t=1793s https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q26LR5SJ2jU&t=1793s 2. Teenage engineering seems to have moved down the boutique scale a bit by attempting to make a more affordably priced unit that will be sold more widely. Good marketing is probably a key component of this strategy since they will need to hit a certain volume to break even.
- hoaw 8y ago
  1. I don't really think it is a different question. I am just saying that a lot of the revere for "boutique" gear isn't in its utility. (which is related to what the OP was saying). I don't deny there are use cases just that it doesn't necessarily match its reputation or price. You are the one saying it has to cost a certain amount, that isn't usually my experience. I would be interested in that case actually being made though, but I hasn't seen one here so far. 2. My intention wasn't really to argue against teenage engineering. I think they are doing good products in general and that people like them a lot. I just don't think they should sell it as ~DIY when it really isn't. Teenage engineering is specifically a sort of "design studio". It isn't that they suddenly needed marketing, they are founded by at least one marketeer from the beginning. They do seem to have the right idea in mind overall, but I don't think this is the correct way to do it.

by hoaw 8y ago

robbyt 8y ago

I'd guess that the design is the most expensive part of building these products. Their marketing for this product is arguably better than Apple. The design for the actual product is unparalleled. The electronics and software development, years spent on prototyping iterations, and overall refinement is expensive in terms of highly skilled labor.

hoaw 8y ago
That is what I am saying though. If you spend a ton of money and time on marketing and product development don't have people essentially pretend to be building it. Or say that it is modular when the case seemingly only supports your modules.
- neom 8y ago
  TE have a staff of less than 50. They do everything themselves (outside of fab) end to end. They are trying to build a new way of making music, like lego, more accessible for more people, they are a startup, building a platform. Chill.
  - hoaw 8y ago
    Don't worry I wouldn't be writing if I didn't find it interesting. I do think it is a pretty important issue. Can countries like Sweden actually produce companies that do the things you say they do these days? I, just as you, would of course like to see that. What I am trying to establish is whether that is actually true. No one here has actually said, as far as I can tell, that I am wrong for a specific reason. Not that this indicate that I would be right. About a decade ago everyone in Sweden was talking about the fashion scene, as in brands and designer, making it in the world. To which the head of H&M responded that most brands didn't even have the revenue of one of their stores. Heard of any large Swedish fashion brands lately? (I am sure they exist, just nowhere near expectations). There is whole world out there not pretending. I hate to see something, or someplace, I know lose because they were.
    - neom 8y ago
      There are like 11 people in Sweden, so they need about 6 teenage engineersingingings to be ok for a bit. Just like there are 11 people in Canada and it's mandated by law, tax dollars are contributed, to pumping out a 1 Justin Bieber a year. These industries in small developed nations are fine and awesome, and maybe TE will be the Ikea of Lego of Music. Surly this is getting into a very very different conversation than if TE are boutique or make good tools, no?
      - hoaw 8y ago
        It is a tangent for sure, but I would say a very different conversation as we are discussing wheter it is hype or not. When countries like Sweden produce international successes it is because substance matters. That is the absolute essence of why that happens. When Markus Persson created Minecraft he did so after a career in the games industry, which goes back to even the demo scene of the 80s(?). He of course had a lot of personal qualities as well, but he didn't come out of nowhere. No one does. A very similar scenario is behind other successes like Spotify, Klarna or even Skype. You can look at e.g. Switzerland for a country that doesn't produce these type of success. So whether they create something of substance is entire essential for whether they succeed or not to create something bigger. Maybe marketing is that substance, but I doubt it. Most likely they will go along for a few years, maybe sell for a low but respectable amount and that will be it. And yes, this is all "in my opinion".

woah 8y ago

1. What does that have to do with the question at hand? Boutique gear is expensive because not many people buy it. As you were saying, the cost is not in the production, but in the development and tooling setup for a given product. Whether or not someone "really needs" it is a different question. I will say that most all modular analog fm synthesis gear is expensive, and it can produce sounds that are not possible in software (or not possible on current CPUs without setting a really high latency). You may not find examples of extreme fm synthesis enjoyable but they are a key part of some genres of music: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q26LR5SJ2jU&t=1793s https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q26LR5SJ2jU&t=1793s 2. Teenage engineering seems to have moved down the boutique scale a bit by attempting to make a more affordably priced unit that will be sold more widely. Good marketing is probably a key component of this strategy since they will need to hit a certain volume to break even.

hoaw 8y ago
1. I don't really think it is a different question. I am just saying that a lot of the revere for "boutique" gear isn't in its utility. (which is related to what the OP was saying). I don't deny there are use cases just that it doesn't necessarily match its reputation or price. You are the one saying it has to cost a certain amount, that isn't usually my experience. I would be interested in that case actually being made though, but I hasn't seen one here so far. 2. My intention wasn't really to argue against teenage engineering. I think they are doing good products in general and that people like them a lot. I just don't think they should sell it as ~DIY when it really isn't. Teenage engineering is specifically a sort of "design studio". It isn't that they suddenly needed marketing, they are founded by at least one marketeer from the beginning. They do seem to have the right idea in mind overall, but I don't think this is the correct way to do it.