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It's all fake of course. It probably costs <$50 to produce, most likely in China. It isn't custom by any means. It is modular, but seemingly it wouldn't make a

• woah 8y ago
  That’s stupid. Boutique musical gear is expensive because somebody spent a lot of time designing it and needs to make a living. As far as sound quality, there are a lot of fm sounds that are not possible to produce on a computer since it lacks the resolution.
  • hoaw 8y ago
    If it is so stupid, explain this to me. 1. Who actually needs boutique gear? I am not saying it isn't fun. I am not saying that it can't be a hobby in itself nor am I saying some tiny percentage of the music industry might need it. But in pretty much all the interviews I have read with successful musician they use something horribly mundane for most of their career, because it isn't about the gear. So does the weekend warrior need boutique stuff? 2. Is teenage engineering actually boutique? I don't know that much about music gear, but I do know a fair bit about electronics and it certainly doesn't look in anyway custom to me. You might think that it is because e.g. they use bare PCBs. But that would be a faulty assumption. So what is expensive part here?
    • robbyt 8y ago
      I'd guess that the design is the most expensive part of building these products. Their marketing for this product is arguably better than Apple. The design for the actual product is unparalleled. The electronics and software development, years spent on prototyping iterations, and overall refinement is expensive in terms of highly skilled labor.
      • hoaw 8y ago
        That is what I am saying though. If you spend a ton of money and time on marketing and product development don't have people essentially pretend to be building it. Or say that it is modular when the case seemingly only supports your modules.
        • neom 8y ago
          TE have a staff of less than 50. They do everything themselves (outside of fab) end to end. They are trying to build a new way of making music, like lego, more accessible for more people, they are a startup, building a platform. Chill.
          • hoaw 8y ago
            Don't worry I wouldn't be writing if I didn't find it interesting. I do think it is a pretty important issue. Can countries like Sweden actually produce companies that do the things you say they do these days? I, just as you, would of course like to see that. What I am trying to establish is whether that is actually true. No one here has actually said, as far as I can tell, that I am wrong for a specific reason. Not that this indicate that I would be right. About a decade ago everyone in Sweden was talking about the fashion scene, as in brands and designer, making it in the world. To which the head of H&M responded that most brands didn't even have the revenue of one of their stores. Heard of any large Swedish fashion brands lately? (I am sure they exist, just nowhere near expectations). There is whole world out there not pretending. I hate to see something, or someplace, I know lose because they were.
            • neom 8y ago
              There are like 11 people in Sweden, so they need about 6 teenage engineersingingings to be ok for a bit. Just like there are 11 people in Canada and it's mandated by law, tax dollars are contributed, to pumping out a 1 Justin Bieber a year. These industries in small developed nations are fine and awesome, and maybe TE will be the Ikea of Lego of Music. Surly this is getting into a very very different conversation than if TE are boutique or make good tools, no?
    • woah 8y ago
      1. What does that have to do with the question at hand? Boutique gear is expensive because not many people buy it. As you were saying, the cost is not in the production, but in the development and tooling setup for a given product. Whether or not someone "really needs" it is a different question. I will say that most all modular analog fm synthesis gear is expensive, and it can produce sounds that are not possible in software (or not possible on current CPUs without setting a really high latency). You may not find examples of extreme fm synthesis enjoyable but they are a key part of some genres of music: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q26LR5SJ2jU&t=1793s https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q26LR5SJ2jU&t=1793s 2. Teenage engineering seems to have moved down the boutique scale a bit by attempting to make a more affordably priced unit that will be sold more widely. Good marketing is probably a key component of this strategy since they will need to hit a certain volume to break even.
      • hoaw 8y ago
        1. I don't really think it is a different question. I am just saying that a lot of the revere for "boutique" gear isn't in its utility. (which is related to what the OP was saying). I don't deny there are use cases just that it doesn't necessarily match its reputation or price. You are the one saying it has to cost a certain amount, that isn't usually my experience. I would be interested in that case actually being made though, but I hasn't seen one here so far. 2. My intention wasn't really to argue against teenage engineering. I think they are doing good products in general and that people like them a lot. I just don't think they should sell it as ~DIY when it really isn't. Teenage engineering is specifically a sort of "design studio". It isn't that they suddenly needed marketing, they are founded by at least one marketeer from the beginning. They do seem to have the right idea in mind overall, but I don't think this is the correct way to do it.
• detaro 8y ago
  What do you mean by "fake" and "custom"? Nearly no gear is "custom" in the sense that it's custom made for a specific person (although some small manufacturers probably would do that, if you're willing to pay for it), and at least in electronic music gear it is not a common claim for it to be (and it's e.g. not mentioned in the article here, so I'm not sure why you are arguing against it being so?) Similarly, what's "fake"? The product is what it says on the tin, is it not? I think you overestimate the "can be build cheaply" aspect for many small manufacturers too, given small volumes, need to pay for R&D, mechanical components/work, ...
  • hoaw 8y ago
    What does fake usually mean? Deceptive maybe? I think a lot of what is being sold isn't substantial. It isn't supported by utility, but other things like marketing. I think a lot of the market for these items aren't people who need it. Being e.g. modular is something of utility. These products usually requires assembly because those who made it didn't have that capability, they share parts with something else or they are customizable from the start. Not because the manufacturer decided that it was a good idea for marketing purposes. What does custom usually mean? I guess that is a bit harder. You could probably say non generic. It is something that was made for some specific purpose or could be adapted to specific situations. Maybe they don't say it is custom, but that is most of the point with a modular synth. That you have many specific modules that could be changed. Either by making a better one or in how you combine them. My argument is partly about the product itself. That it is using features of custom things without really being it. You get to assemble it, but not because it lets you customize anything or because it is really needed. You get modules that you can use in other product, but the product itself isn't really modular. The other part is about the market in general. There is a paradox in luxury goods in that they can't have to much utility. Because things with utility doesn't usually have a lot, or as much, margin. This type of gear can only be expensive if it doesn't have that much utility. Otherwise someone would make it far cheaper. The utility of the product is to some extent being expensive. And note that I am yet again not saying that there is something wrong with this as such. Not that this help since it still offends. It is just that when you are pretending that something is something that it isn't you are hurting the real thing. I think the same is true in other areas as well, as open source. Or being a hacker. If anyone can say that they are doing these things no one has to really care about the real thing. As I said earlier Stockholm is awful for scrappy companies. Yet, people can point at a company like teenage engineering and say "look they are doing these dynamic things with utility, how bad could it be?". But in reality there garage work space was in the most expensive part of town and apparently filled with one of the founder sports cars. So if there is anything I would want you to take away from this it is to not give up the real thing. A dynamic ecosystem were people can actually modify their tools and make new things. This is were all these movements get their reputation from. Being a catalyst of other things. Not by having people play pretend with expensive things with less utility. Like the top comment implied, if you want to make music learn a DAW. You want to make your own synth as a hobby, do that (there are a number of great forums). If you want to have a company in Stockholm, where apartment costs as much as in SV, sell you expensive gear go with this instead.
• robbyt 8y ago
  The components are very likely made in China, but I'd guess that the pick-and-place likely happens in or near their HQ in Europe. As someone who owns a business that has designed and sells a similar product, I'd guess their raw cost is at $125-175/ea. for the $500 product.
• JTTR 8y ago
  While there's certainly mark-ups, the most popular modules are made by their manufacturers rather than outsourced to China. Doepfer in Germany, Make Noise in the US, Intellijel in Canada, ALM in the UK, Mutable Instruments is outsourced but only to another part of France. Long lead times on certain modules are par for the course when they're being made by one person. Of course, when it's one person making everything, the total output of stock is going to be low, and thus the economy of scale that something like a Raspberry Pi is able to take advantage of is reduced, especially with moving parts like potentiometers, which can cost more per unit than a micro-controller. There are people making modules for dirt cheap with razor thin margins, mostly as a side job, and there's always the DIY route if you want to save a few pennies.
  • hoaw 8y ago
    That is certainly good to hear. Though I would argue that it is those manufacturers who deserve a lot of the credit. I don't want to be a buzzkill. I just hate when people get to to have their cake and eat it too. All these words like "boutique", "indie", "hacker", "custom" or whatever you want to call it has meaning. Their positive connotation is based on some sort of substance. That there is something unique going on. Whether that is independence, a scene or something else. And Stockholm is truly awful for that these days. I am certainly not negative toward independent, or small businesses. But as you grow there will at one point be significant incentive to pretend that there is substance when there isn't. So at one point you are selling "craft beer" from you mansion, while everyone else is struggling with e.g. distribution. On the other hand sometimes people are scrappy just for its own sake, which isn't necessarily good either. I am not necessarily against outsourcing (even though I think a middle road would be the best), just put in on the tin.