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I've been wanting to buy a new analog synthesizer for a few years now, but i almost always balk at the price of these things. I can afford these things, but the

by zach43 8y ago

I've been wanting to buy a new analog synthesizer for a few years now, but i almost always balk at the price of these things. I can afford these things, but they never feel like a sound financial choice. Personally, I blame the Raspberry Pi. Having played with a quad-core, 1GHz device with a GPU and wifi chip that retails for ~$30, i just can't see myself dropping $300 - $500 on an underpowered analog synthesizer...i've mostly just moved to digital synthesis now, which is quite enriching and fun. if anyone's in the same boat as me, I'd highly recommend nanoloop, which is quite fun to make music with on your phone: https://nanoloop.com/ https://nanoloop.com/ I get that the analog synthesizers have a great musical feel and history to them, but i just don't think they provide that much more utility or flexibility than 10-100x cheaper digital instruments.

deleted 8y ago
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hoaw 8y ago
It's all fake of course. It probably costs <$50 to produce, most likely in China. It isn't custom by any means. It is modular, but seemingly it wouldn't make a lot of sense since that isn't what you are paying for. Doesn't matter much. A lot of hobbies are a status thing. Most people aren't going to actually make something out of it. An unused computer program doesn't say much. So you want the "custom" gear to compensate. I guess there is nothing wrong with that as such. It is still fake though.
- woah 8y ago
  That’s stupid. Boutique musical gear is expensive because somebody spent a lot of time designing it and needs to make a living. As far as sound quality, there are a lot of fm sounds that are not possible to produce on a computer since it lacks the resolution.
  - hoaw 8y ago
    If it is so stupid, explain this to me. 1. Who actually needs boutique gear? I am not saying it isn't fun. I am not saying that it can't be a hobby in itself nor am I saying some tiny percentage of the music industry might need it. But in pretty much all the interviews I have read with successful musician they use something horribly mundane for most of their career, because it isn't about the gear. So does the weekend warrior need boutique stuff? 2. Is teenage engineering actually boutique? I don't know that much about music gear, but I do know a fair bit about electronics and it certainly doesn't look in anyway custom to me. You might think that it is because e.g. they use bare PCBs. But that would be a faulty assumption. So what is expensive part here?
    - robbyt 8y ago
      I'd guess that the design is the most expensive part of building these products. Their marketing for this product is arguably better than Apple. The design for the actual product is unparalleled. The electronics and software development, years spent on prototyping iterations, and overall refinement is expensive in terms of highly skilled labor.
      - hoaw 8y ago
        That is what I am saying though. If you spend a ton of money and time on marketing and product development don't have people essentially pretend to be building it. Or say that it is modular when the case seemingly only supports your modules.
        neom 8y ago
        TE have a staff of less than 50. They do everything themselves (outside of fab) end to end. They are trying to build a new way of making music, like lego, more accessible for more people, they are a startup, building a platform. Chill.
        hoaw 8y ago
- detaro 8y ago
  What do you mean by "fake" and "custom"? Nearly no gear is "custom" in the sense that it's custom made for a specific person (although some small manufacturers probably would do that, if you're willing to pay for it), and at least in electronic music gear it is not a common claim for it to be (and it's e.g. not mentioned in the article here, so I'm not sure why you are arguing against it being so?) Similarly, what's "fake"? The product is what it says on the tin, is it not? I think you overestimate the "can be build cheaply" aspect for many small manufacturers too, given small volumes, need to pay for R&D, mechanical components/work, ...
  - hoaw 8y ago
    What does fake usually mean? Deceptive maybe? I think a lot of what is being sold isn't substantial. It isn't supported by utility, but other things like marketing. I think a lot of the market for these items aren't people who need it. Being e.g. modular is something of utility. These products usually requires assembly because those who made it didn't have that capability, they share parts with something else or they are customizable from the start. Not because the manufacturer decided that it was a good idea for marketing purposes. What does custom usually mean? I guess that is a bit harder. You could probably say non generic. It is something that was made for some specific purpose or could be adapted to specific situations. Maybe they don't say it is custom, but that is most of the point with a modular synth. That you have many specific modules that could be changed. Either by making a better one or in how you combine them. My argument is partly about the product itself. That it is using features of custom things without really being it. You get to assemble it, but not because it lets you customize anything or because it is really needed. You get modules that you can use in other product, but the product itself isn't really modular. The other part is about the market in general. There is a paradox in luxury goods in that they can't have to much utility. Because things with utility doesn't usually have a lot, or as much, margin. This type of gear can only be expensive if it doesn't have that much utility. Otherwise someone would make it far cheaper. The utility of the product is to some extent being expensive. And note that I am yet again not saying that there is something wrong with this as such. Not that this help since it still offends. It is just that when you are pretending that something is something that it isn't you are hurting the real thing. I think the same is true in other areas as well, as open source. Or being a hacker. If anyone can say that they are doing these things no one has to really care about the real thing. As I said earlier Stockholm is awful for scrappy companies. Yet, people can point at a company like teenage engineering and say "look they are doing these dynamic things with utility, how bad could it be?". But in reality there garage work space was in the most expensive part of town and apparently filled with one of the founder sports cars. So if there is anything I would want you to take away from this it is to not give up the real thing. A dynamic ecosystem were people can actually modify their tools and make new things. This is were all these movements get their reputation from. Being a catalyst of other things. Not by having people play pretend with expensive things with less utility. Like the top comment implied, if you want to make music learn a DAW. You want to make your own synth as a hobby, do that (there are a number of great forums). If you want to have a company in Stockholm, where apartment costs as much as in SV, sell you expensive gear go with this instead.
- robbyt 8y ago
  The components are very likely made in China, but I'd guess that the pick-and-place likely happens in or near their HQ in Europe. As someone who owns a business that has designed and sells a similar product, I'd guess their raw cost is at $125-175/ea. for the $500 product.
- JTTR 8y ago
  While there's certainly mark-ups, the most popular modules are made by their manufacturers rather than outsourced to China. Doepfer in Germany, Make Noise in the US, Intellijel in Canada, ALM in the UK, Mutable Instruments is outsourced but only to another part of France. Long lead times on certain modules are par for the course when they're being made by one person. Of course, when it's one person making everything, the total output of stock is going to be low, and thus the economy of scale that something like a Raspberry Pi is able to take advantage of is reduced, especially with moving parts like potentiometers, which can cost more per unit than a micro-controller. There are people making modules for dirt cheap with razor thin margins, mostly as a side job, and there's always the DIY route if you want to save a few pennies.
  - hoaw 8y ago
    That is certainly good to hear. Though I would argue that it is those manufacturers who deserve a lot of the credit. I don't want to be a buzzkill. I just hate when people get to to have their cake and eat it too. All these words like "boutique", "indie", "hacker", "custom" or whatever you want to call it has meaning. Their positive connotation is based on some sort of substance. That there is something unique going on. Whether that is independence, a scene or something else. And Stockholm is truly awful for that these days. I am certainly not negative toward independent, or small businesses. But as you grow there will at one point be significant incentive to pretend that there is substance when there isn't. So at one point you are selling "craft beer" from you mansion, while everyone else is struggling with e.g. distribution. On the other hand sometimes people are scrappy just for its own sake, which isn't necessarily good either. I am not necessarily against outsourcing (even though I think a middle road would be the best), just put in on the tin.

by zach43 8y ago

deleted 8y ago

[deleted]

deleted 8y ago

[deleted]

hoaw 8y ago

It's all fake of course. It probably costs <$50 to produce, most likely in China. It isn't custom by any means. It is modular, but seemingly it wouldn't make a lot of sense since that isn't what you are paying for. Doesn't matter much. A lot of hobbies are a status thing. Most people aren't going to actually make something out of it. An unused computer program doesn't say much. So you want the "custom" gear to compensate. I guess there is nothing wrong with that as such. It is still fake though.

woah 8y ago
That’s stupid. Boutique musical gear is expensive because somebody spent a lot of time designing it and needs to make a living. As far as sound quality, there are a lot of fm sounds that are not possible to produce on a computer since it lacks the resolution.
- hoaw 8y ago
  If it is so stupid, explain this to me. 1. Who actually needs boutique gear? I am not saying it isn't fun. I am not saying that it can't be a hobby in itself nor am I saying some tiny percentage of the music industry might need it. But in pretty much all the interviews I have read with successful musician they use something horribly mundane for most of their career, because it isn't about the gear. So does the weekend warrior need boutique stuff? 2. Is teenage engineering actually boutique? I don't know that much about music gear, but I do know a fair bit about electronics and it certainly doesn't look in anyway custom to me. You might think that it is because e.g. they use bare PCBs. But that would be a faulty assumption. So what is expensive part here?
  - robbyt 8y ago
    I'd guess that the design is the most expensive part of building these products. Their marketing for this product is arguably better than Apple. The design for the actual product is unparalleled. The electronics and software development, years spent on prototyping iterations, and overall refinement is expensive in terms of highly skilled labor.
    - hoaw 8y ago
      That is what I am saying though. If you spend a ton of money and time on marketing and product development don't have people essentially pretend to be building it. Or say that it is modular when the case seemingly only supports your modules.
      - neom 8y ago
        TE have a staff of less than 50. They do everything themselves (outside of fab) end to end. They are trying to build a new way of making music, like lego, more accessible for more people, they are a startup, building a platform. Chill.
        hoaw 8y ago
detaro 8y ago
What do you mean by "fake" and "custom"? Nearly no gear is "custom" in the sense that it's custom made for a specific person (although some small manufacturers probably would do that, if you're willing to pay for it), and at least in electronic music gear it is not a common claim for it to be (and it's e.g. not mentioned in the article here, so I'm not sure why you are arguing against it being so?) Similarly, what's "fake"? The product is what it says on the tin, is it not? I think you overestimate the "can be build cheaply" aspect for many small manufacturers too, given small volumes, need to pay for R&D, mechanical components/work, ...
- hoaw 8y ago
  What does fake usually mean? Deceptive maybe? I think a lot of what is being sold isn't substantial. It isn't supported by utility, but other things like marketing. I think a lot of the market for these items aren't people who need it. Being e.g. modular is something of utility. These products usually requires assembly because those who made it didn't have that capability, they share parts with something else or they are customizable from the start. Not because the manufacturer decided that it was a good idea for marketing purposes. What does custom usually mean? I guess that is a bit harder. You could probably say non generic. It is something that was made for some specific purpose or could be adapted to specific situations. Maybe they don't say it is custom, but that is most of the point with a modular synth. That you have many specific modules that could be changed. Either by making a better one or in how you combine them. My argument is partly about the product itself. That it is using features of custom things without really being it. You get to assemble it, but not because it lets you customize anything or because it is really needed. You get modules that you can use in other product, but the product itself isn't really modular. The other part is about the market in general. There is a paradox in luxury goods in that they can't have to much utility. Because things with utility doesn't usually have a lot, or as much, margin. This type of gear can only be expensive if it doesn't have that much utility. Otherwise someone would make it far cheaper. The utility of the product is to some extent being expensive. And note that I am yet again not saying that there is something wrong with this as such. Not that this help since it still offends. It is just that when you are pretending that something is something that it isn't you are hurting the real thing. I think the same is true in other areas as well, as open source. Or being a hacker. If anyone can say that they are doing these things no one has to really care about the real thing. As I said earlier Stockholm is awful for scrappy companies. Yet, people can point at a company like teenage engineering and say "look they are doing these dynamic things with utility, how bad could it be?". But in reality there garage work space was in the most expensive part of town and apparently filled with one of the founder sports cars. So if there is anything I would want you to take away from this it is to not give up the real thing. A dynamic ecosystem were people can actually modify their tools and make new things. This is were all these movements get their reputation from. Being a catalyst of other things. Not by having people play pretend with expensive things with less utility. Like the top comment implied, if you want to make music learn a DAW. You want to make your own synth as a hobby, do that (there are a number of great forums). If you want to have a company in Stockholm, where apartment costs as much as in SV, sell you expensive gear go with this instead.
robbyt 8y ago
The components are very likely made in China, but I'd guess that the pick-and-place likely happens in or near their HQ in Europe. As someone who owns a business that has designed and sells a similar product, I'd guess their raw cost is at $125-175/ea. for the $500 product.
JTTR 8y ago
While there's certainly mark-ups, the most popular modules are made by their manufacturers rather than outsourced to China. Doepfer in Germany, Make Noise in the US, Intellijel in Canada, ALM in the UK, Mutable Instruments is outsourced but only to another part of France. Long lead times on certain modules are par for the course when they're being made by one person. Of course, when it's one person making everything, the total output of stock is going to be low, and thus the economy of scale that something like a Raspberry Pi is able to take advantage of is reduced, especially with moving parts like potentiometers, which can cost more per unit than a micro-controller. There are people making modules for dirt cheap with razor thin margins, mostly as a side job, and there's always the DIY route if you want to save a few pennies.
- hoaw 8y ago
  That is certainly good to hear. Though I would argue that it is those manufacturers who deserve a lot of the credit. I don't want to be a buzzkill. I just hate when people get to to have their cake and eat it too. All these words like "boutique", "indie", "hacker", "custom" or whatever you want to call it has meaning. Their positive connotation is based on some sort of substance. That there is something unique going on. Whether that is independence, a scene or something else. And Stockholm is truly awful for that these days. I am certainly not negative toward independent, or small businesses. But as you grow there will at one point be significant incentive to pretend that there is substance when there isn't. So at one point you are selling "craft beer" from you mansion, while everyone else is struggling with e.g. distribution. On the other hand sometimes people are scrappy just for its own sake, which isn't necessarily good either. I am not necessarily against outsourcing (even though I think a middle road would be the best), just put in on the tin.