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Also time to give up user data to the Chinese government, apparently. https://iphone.appleinsider.com/articles/18/02/24/apple-to-move-chinese-icloud-keys-to-ch

by fooker 8y ago

Also time to give up user data to the Chinese government, apparently. https://iphone.appleinsider.com/articles/18/02/24/apple-to-move-chinese-icloud-keys-to-china-servers-opens-door-to-government-data-requests https://iphone.appleinsider.com/articles/18/02/24/apple-to-m...

sjwright 8y ago
Only if you're a Chinese citizen in China. From the article: "Apple to move Chinese iCloud keys to China servers...Once on Chinese soil, government agencies will be able to request information through the Chinese legal system, which lacks the transparency, checks or oversight of its American counterpart." If you think the US Government would never act without transparency, checks or oversight, you are being delusional. And factually wrong. Apple is complying with the local laws, just as it does in all other countries. The suggestion that Apple should breach these laws—or exit the market entirely—is absurd and unproductive.
- tylerl 8y ago
  The difference is that traditional "free" governments don't maintain the entrenchment of existing political officials and the competitive dominance of their own domestic industry as a defensive justification for using their legal system to force companies to disclose, steal, falsify, or destroy information in secret. Companies like Apple, Google and Microsoft are free to challenge court orders from the US or other friendly governments, even those ordered in secret, and they regularly do so. You don't hear about it, but it's pretty common. And these cases do get the scrutiny of many eyes, following similar legal paths as more traditional court challenges, only without all the news coverage.
- zAy0LfpBZLC8mAC 8y ago
  Have you tried replacing "China" with "Hitler Germany" in your argument? Do you think it still applies? Or can you explain why not?
  - fooker 8y ago
    Interestingly, IBM successfully used similar arguments after WW2 and escaped with barely a scratch on their reputation.
saagarjha 8y ago
Apple gives iCloud data to the US government too, and, as a sibling comment has mentioned, only gives data to the Chinese government if you are a Chinese citizen. The correct response to this is not “Apple is selling us out to China”, it’s “Apple should encrypt iCloud data at rest and end-to-end, without storing the keys, so nobody can have it”.
- chongli 8y ago
  If Apple did this then they wouldn't be able to offer a password reset feature, leading to user data loss. For a consumer-oriented company, data loss is unacceptable.
GeekyBear 8y ago
Being forced to follow local laws in the countries where you do business is one thing. Who is forcing Google to buy copies of everyone's credit card transaction data so they can expand the surveillance of their users in their offline life? >Google has been able to track your location using Google Maps for a long time. Since 2014, it has used that information to provide advertisers with information on how often people visit their stores. But store visits aren’t purchases, so, as Google said in a blog post on its new service for marketers, it has partnered with “third parties” that give them access to 70 percent of all credit and debit card purchases. https://www.technologyreview.com/s/607938/google-now-tracks-your-credit-card-purchases-and-connects-them-to-its-online-profile-of-you/ https://www.technologyreview.com/s/607938/google-now-tracks-...

by fooker 8y ago

sjwright 8y ago

Only if you're a Chinese citizen in China. From the article: "Apple to move Chinese iCloud keys to China servers...Once on Chinese soil, government agencies will be able to request information through the Chinese legal system, which lacks the transparency, checks or oversight of its American counterpart." If you think the US Government would never act without transparency, checks or oversight, you are being delusional. And factually wrong. Apple is complying with the local laws, just as it does in all other countries. The suggestion that Apple should breach these laws—or exit the market entirely—is absurd and unproductive.

tylerl 8y ago
The difference is that traditional "free" governments don't maintain the entrenchment of existing political officials and the competitive dominance of their own domestic industry as a defensive justification for using their legal system to force companies to disclose, steal, falsify, or destroy information in secret. Companies like Apple, Google and Microsoft are free to challenge court orders from the US or other friendly governments, even those ordered in secret, and they regularly do so. You don't hear about it, but it's pretty common. And these cases do get the scrutiny of many eyes, following similar legal paths as more traditional court challenges, only without all the news coverage.
zAy0LfpBZLC8mAC 8y ago
Have you tried replacing "China" with "Hitler Germany" in your argument? Do you think it still applies? Or can you explain why not?
- fooker 8y ago
  Interestingly, IBM successfully used similar arguments after WW2 and escaped with barely a scratch on their reputation.

saagarjha 8y ago

Apple gives iCloud data to the US government too, and, as a sibling comment has mentioned, only gives data to the Chinese government if you are a Chinese citizen. The correct response to this is not “Apple is selling us out to China”, it’s “Apple should encrypt iCloud data at rest and end-to-end, without storing the keys, so nobody can have it”.

chongli 8y ago
If Apple did this then they wouldn't be able to offer a password reset feature, leading to user data loss. For a consumer-oriented company, data loss is unacceptable.

GeekyBear 8y ago

Being forced to follow local laws in the countries where you do business is one thing. Who is forcing Google to buy copies of everyone's credit card transaction data so they can expand the surveillance of their users in their offline life? >Google has been able to track your location using Google Maps for a long time. Since 2014, it has used that information to provide advertisers with information on how often people visit their stores. But store visits aren’t purchases, so, as Google said in a blog post on its new service for marketers, it has partnered with “third parties” that give them access to 70 percent of all credit and debit card purchases. https://www.technologyreview.com/s/607938/google-now-tracks-your-credit-card-purchases-and-connects-them-to-its-online-profile-of-you/ https://www.technologyreview.com/s/607938/google-now-tracks-...