5 ms·

Would it be fair to say the exact same thing about, say, Christianity, or any large scale religion? That, at it's core, it's a hack on the human mind, for peopl

by medion 8y ago

Would it be fair to say the exact same thing about, say, Christianity, or any large scale religion? That, at it's core, it's a hack on the human mind, for people to feel important, to feel in control, when the world is so large and uncaring? Because to me, this burgeoning conspiracy culture (chemtrails, 5G, flat earth, etc etc) just feels like people utilising the same brain space that was once more used for religion...

OscarTheGrinch 8y ago
He he, had to look up "5G conspiracy", I hadn't gone down that intellectual black hole before. https://motherboard.vice.com/en_us/article/evmzv7/alt-right-5g-nationalized-network-google-deep-state-conspiracy https://motherboard.vice.com/en_us/article/evmzv7/alt-right-... For anyone interested in a sympathetic approach to debunking fraudulent belief systems I recommend Carl Sagan's excellent book: The Demon Haunted World. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Demon-Haunted_World https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Demon-Haunted_World
- paradoxparalax 8y ago
  Carl Sagan was a Master at detecting malicious manure. Should be read with maximum attention. Specially the juicy chapter: "the art of detecting baloney" or something like this.
javajosh 8y ago
I believe both you and the GP are correct. Moreover it generalizes even further and includes, for example, the identity politics dogma of the modern left. These beliefs about systematic injustice are more than just rational arguments, they are themselves an important component to an emotional identity, a key to understanding a complex, suffering world, and hence a way to see possible solutions to that suffering. (Also we aren't the first to note the interesting rise of various secular replacements for religion! Personally, my favorite is Buddhism because it is the most humane way to embrace the void that religion leaves when it goes. )
- medion 8y ago
  I struggle with Buddhism, only because while it is the only major religion that actually makes sense to me, I can't overcome the cultural disconnect as a white westerner, attempting to adopt ways of thinking which are so culturally different & abstract. Science at this juncture is the only method of looking at the world which appears rational to me, however unfortunately science doesn't have answers to the poetry of existence which religion attempts to mitigate.
  - sixstringtheory 8y ago
    If you haven’t read it I’d highly recommend “The Universe in a Single Atom” by the Dalai Lama. He is one smart person, and I found it both delightful and thought provoking. https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/100629 https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/100629
    - medion 8y ago
      This looks good, ordered.
  - squirrelicus 8y ago
    Religions are a combination of unbelievable fairy tales and rational teachings with thousands of years of deep thought about and iteration on how to make a better world. Secular ethical thought is still in its infancy and highly disjointed; and it's not clear that it's even possible to achieve what many religions have without the unbelievable fairy tales. Remember, as much as Buddhism might teach you to be... well, Christlike frankly, you still have to accept that the afterlife, karmic cycle, and Nirvana are intrinsic fairy tales unseverable from the religious teachings themselves. Maybe the fairy tales aren't bad. Even if they aren't true.
    - paradoxparalax 8y ago
      Those fairy tales, I would bet that , if let's say for example Jesus, existed in reality as a person(not clear) He maybe didn't speak any of those fairy tales. They are inventions made by distorting and contorting what was originnaly said by the Thinker, most probably with malicious intentions. Now there I am not clear, but in the case of Buddha, when he walked on earth(most probably true, if not already proven) I am even sure, and I dont like to say I am sure, because confidence is a two-edged blade, but all datapoints point to Buddha being probably very close to what we call an Atheist, and the rest was most probably added later as fairy tale. A very good, I mean the best and most enlightening work ever written about Lamaism/Buddhism is probably that of the French Author Alexandra David Nell, That I have read decades ago, still remember her name, dont remember any of her books name, and Never found any mention of her existence again on Google or DDG or anywhere! Now everyone's DDG is the same, but as everyone's google is unique, if someone find any vestige of this French Author in his/her Search Engine, and can point us, I would be immensely , sincerely grateful, because I have been looking for it for decades now. Her writing still sounds like she believes in fairy tales, but in a pythonisical way(the best way :) she tells step by step all the non-metaphysical, philosofical serious explanation of each one of these concepts, that became fairy tales with time, unfortunately. :late: How come the word "pythonisical" doesn't exist in English? Or my google is angry at me? Well...I hereby declare it's existance from now on, and, off couse, explain that this word is related to the smart and drug lover pretty girl(coincidentally!) that used to hang around the temple of Apolo in Delphi, and she was called by her close friends Pythia.
roenxi 8y ago
If you look at the range of feasible activities in human existence, it is actually pretty small. In the modern era, a person can buy some quantity of a relatively small number of consumer goods, choose their place of residence, their work and their friends circle. In previous eras, choices were even more limited. To say 'utilising the same brain space' carries implications that minds basically work except there is a little area open to corruption. I'd suggest on the contrary that minds _not_ working is the natural state of things, and most people either aren't intellectually challenged or aren't bold enough to go outside their areas of competence. Note that it takes a literal decade of schooling to be a functional member of society. So, I would contend it is possible, with great effort, to create a little area in your mind that sees some level of truth in a given situation. Nothing to do with religion.
squirrelicus 8y ago
I think the same brain space is used by futurists too. Magic batteries, dehumidifiers, a/c units, rockets, tunnels, Mars colonization, integrated neutral/digital systems. People want to feel like they are a part of a new age of knowledge set apart from the intellectually content masses, and feel like they're more honest in breaking free from the doctrine handed down by elites. And no. It's not fair to say that about religion in general. There are many reasons why people believe their religions.
- oAlbe 8y ago
  > There are many reasons why people believe their religions. What are those reasons in your opinion?
  - Koshkin 8y ago
    Religion is the sigh of the oppressed creature, the heart of a heartless world, and the soul of soulless conditions. It is the opium of the people. — K.Marx
    - squirrelicus 8y ago
      "The gulags are a great idea" - Lenin. Marxists don't deserve a seat at the table of moral philosophy, no matter what your professor might have told you
      - claudiawerner 8y ago
        By the same logic, neither does liberalism (based on the writings of philosophers such as John Locke), since it must be responsible for the actions (sometimes horrific) of every liberal state, or even any state that claims to be liberal, no?
  - squirrelicus 8y ago
    Religions distill generations of solutions to psychological problems we all face. Job: what do you do when tragedy strikes, when it feels like God and Satan have plotted against you? Don't destroy your own foundation; the tragedy wasn't your fault. Abraham and Isaac: if sacrifice makes a better future, what if we sacrifice the thing we cherish most in hope of the best possible future? God will never expect you to sacrifice your child; there is a limit to the efficacy of sacrifice. Sadly a lesson the brutally immoral Aztecs never learned. Christ as Redeemer: it is possible that even the worst among us can be saved from the hell they choose to create. There is divinity in each and every person that must be respected. It's tempting to prescribe the worst punishment and exile for those that make bad or antisocial choices. But more often than not, what they need most in order to rehabilitate is love. They can be resurrected from the death of nihilism. These small examples are lessons that were learned by countless generations before them. Codifying them and passing them on was critical to the thriving of the societies that respected them. We reject them at our peril.
Y_Y 8y ago
If anyone is interested in this, I strongly recommend Snow Crash by Neal Stephenson, although I'm sure pretty much all geeks over a certain age have already read it. Religion, memetics, hackers, and the human mind are all tied up in a really good sci-fi book.
- fileeditview 8y ago
  And after you have read it try The Diamond Age by the same author. I never know which of both books fascinated me more.
  - satori99 8y ago
    Both novels are set in the same world, with The Diamond Age being some time after Snowcrash. They even share characters, though it's not immediately obvious.

by medion 8y ago

OscarTheGrinch 8y ago

He he, had to look up "5G conspiracy", I hadn't gone down that intellectual black hole before. https://motherboard.vice.com/en_us/article/evmzv7/alt-right-5g-nationalized-network-google-deep-state-conspiracy https://motherboard.vice.com/en_us/article/evmzv7/alt-right-... For anyone interested in a sympathetic approach to debunking fraudulent belief systems I recommend Carl Sagan's excellent book: The Demon Haunted World. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Demon-Haunted_World https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Demon-Haunted_World

paradoxparalax 8y ago
Carl Sagan was a Master at detecting malicious manure. Should be read with maximum attention. Specially the juicy chapter: "the art of detecting baloney" or something like this.

javajosh 8y ago

I believe both you and the GP are correct. Moreover it generalizes even further and includes, for example, the identity politics dogma of the modern left. These beliefs about systematic injustice are more than just rational arguments, they are themselves an important component to an emotional identity, a key to understanding a complex, suffering world, and hence a way to see possible solutions to that suffering. (Also we aren't the first to note the interesting rise of various secular replacements for religion! Personally, my favorite is Buddhism because it is the most humane way to embrace the void that religion leaves when it goes. )

medion 8y ago
I struggle with Buddhism, only because while it is the only major religion that actually makes sense to me, I can't overcome the cultural disconnect as a white westerner, attempting to adopt ways of thinking which are so culturally different & abstract. Science at this juncture is the only method of looking at the world which appears rational to me, however unfortunately science doesn't have answers to the poetry of existence which religion attempts to mitigate.
- sixstringtheory 8y ago
  If you haven’t read it I’d highly recommend “The Universe in a Single Atom” by the Dalai Lama. He is one smart person, and I found it both delightful and thought provoking. https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/100629 https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/100629
  - medion 8y ago
    This looks good, ordered.
- squirrelicus 8y ago
  Religions are a combination of unbelievable fairy tales and rational teachings with thousands of years of deep thought about and iteration on how to make a better world. Secular ethical thought is still in its infancy and highly disjointed; and it's not clear that it's even possible to achieve what many religions have without the unbelievable fairy tales. Remember, as much as Buddhism might teach you to be... well, Christlike frankly, you still have to accept that the afterlife, karmic cycle, and Nirvana are intrinsic fairy tales unseverable from the religious teachings themselves. Maybe the fairy tales aren't bad. Even if they aren't true.
  - paradoxparalax 8y ago
    Those fairy tales, I would bet that , if let's say for example Jesus, existed in reality as a person(not clear) He maybe didn't speak any of those fairy tales. They are inventions made by distorting and contorting what was originnaly said by the Thinker, most probably with malicious intentions. Now there I am not clear, but in the case of Buddha, when he walked on earth(most probably true, if not already proven) I am even sure, and I dont like to say I am sure, because confidence is a two-edged blade, but all datapoints point to Buddha being probably very close to what we call an Atheist, and the rest was most probably added later as fairy tale. A very good, I mean the best and most enlightening work ever written about Lamaism/Buddhism is probably that of the French Author Alexandra David Nell, That I have read decades ago, still remember her name, dont remember any of her books name, and Never found any mention of her existence again on Google or DDG or anywhere! Now everyone's DDG is the same, but as everyone's google is unique, if someone find any vestige of this French Author in his/her Search Engine, and can point us, I would be immensely , sincerely grateful, because I have been looking for it for decades now. Her writing still sounds like she believes in fairy tales, but in a pythonisical way(the best way :) she tells step by step all the non-metaphysical, philosofical serious explanation of each one of these concepts, that became fairy tales with time, unfortunately. :late: How come the word "pythonisical" doesn't exist in English? Or my google is angry at me? Well...I hereby declare it's existance from now on, and, off couse, explain that this word is related to the smart and drug lover pretty girl(coincidentally!) that used to hang around the temple of Apolo in Delphi, and she was called by her close friends Pythia.

roenxi 8y ago

If you look at the range of feasible activities in human existence, it is actually pretty small. In the modern era, a person can buy some quantity of a relatively small number of consumer goods, choose their place of residence, their work and their friends circle. In previous eras, choices were even more limited. To say 'utilising the same brain space' carries implications that minds basically work except there is a little area open to corruption. I'd suggest on the contrary that minds _not_ working is the natural state of things, and most people either aren't intellectually challenged or aren't bold enough to go outside their areas of competence. Note that it takes a literal decade of schooling to be a functional member of society. So, I would contend it is possible, with great effort, to create a little area in your mind that sees some level of truth in a given situation. Nothing to do with religion.

squirrelicus 8y ago

I think the same brain space is used by futurists too. Magic batteries, dehumidifiers, a/c units, rockets, tunnels, Mars colonization, integrated neutral/digital systems. People want to feel like they are a part of a new age of knowledge set apart from the intellectually content masses, and feel like they're more honest in breaking free from the doctrine handed down by elites. And no. It's not fair to say that about religion in general. There are many reasons why people believe their religions.

oAlbe 8y ago
> There are many reasons why people believe their religions. What are those reasons in your opinion?
- Koshkin 8y ago
  Religion is the sigh of the oppressed creature, the heart of a heartless world, and the soul of soulless conditions. It is the opium of the people. — K.Marx
  - squirrelicus 8y ago
    "The gulags are a great idea" - Lenin. Marxists don't deserve a seat at the table of moral philosophy, no matter what your professor might have told you
    - claudiawerner 8y ago
      By the same logic, neither does liberalism (based on the writings of philosophers such as John Locke), since it must be responsible for the actions (sometimes horrific) of every liberal state, or even any state that claims to be liberal, no?
- squirrelicus 8y ago
  Religions distill generations of solutions to psychological problems we all face. Job: what do you do when tragedy strikes, when it feels like God and Satan have plotted against you? Don't destroy your own foundation; the tragedy wasn't your fault. Abraham and Isaac: if sacrifice makes a better future, what if we sacrifice the thing we cherish most in hope of the best possible future? God will never expect you to sacrifice your child; there is a limit to the efficacy of sacrifice. Sadly a lesson the brutally immoral Aztecs never learned. Christ as Redeemer: it is possible that even the worst among us can be saved from the hell they choose to create. There is divinity in each and every person that must be respected. It's tempting to prescribe the worst punishment and exile for those that make bad or antisocial choices. But more often than not, what they need most in order to rehabilitate is love. They can be resurrected from the death of nihilism. These small examples are lessons that were learned by countless generations before them. Codifying them and passing them on was critical to the thriving of the societies that respected them. We reject them at our peril.

Y_Y 8y ago

If anyone is interested in this, I strongly recommend Snow Crash by Neal Stephenson, although I'm sure pretty much all geeks over a certain age have already read it. Religion, memetics, hackers, and the human mind are all tied up in a really good sci-fi book.

fileeditview 8y ago
And after you have read it try The Diamond Age by the same author. I never know which of both books fascinated me more.
- satori99 8y ago
  Both novels are set in the same world, with The Diamond Age being some time after Snowcrash. They even share characters, though it's not immediately obvious.