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Cook's version here is significantly stronger than Jobs'. Not that Jobs was wrong as far as he went, but merely being informed that you're about to be punched i

Cook's version here is significantly stronger than Jobs'. Not that Jobs was wrong as far as he went, but merely being informed that you're about to be punched in the face doesn't actually make being punched in the face acceptable. What we're missing today is the option to use normal products and services without any of this data sharing and telemetry going on when they aren't necessary for the normal functioning of the product or service, which the kinds that upset or concern people almost never are. We need to sever the ties between using everyday things and participating in data-based schemes that make the suppliers more money but are otherwise not necessary for what the customer was buying. Clearly the market has failed here and is in a race to the bottom, and that is the point where regulation/legislation should step in.

luckylion 8y ago
They are often "necessary" for monetization though, aren't they? A few privacy-minded people would probably pay a few bucks a month to use Google without tracking, ads etc, but I doubt that it would be a lot. And it wouldn't be cheap either, I'm afraid. Let's say you take what Gmail offers for free and buy it at ProtonMail - that'd be 20-30 euros a month just for Email. Who would spend hundreds of dollars a month to get today's average digital experience but with solid privacy? And who could actually afford to?
- Silhouette 8y ago
  It's not so much Google I'm worried about. I can choose to use other online services. But I should be able to buy a car without the vendor tracking me everywhere I go, or a phone without it becoming a beacon that stores use to follow me around as I do my shopping, or a TV that just lets me watch a show without phoning home to tell the manufacturer all about it. None of the data sharing in these cases is in any way essential to the device I've bought, it's just being added because it can be, as an extra revenue stream at the expense of my privacy and potentially security.
  - luckylion 8y ago
    I agree, but it would increase the prices, right? Would you buy a phone that doesn't include "we'll sell the user's data" in the financial planning at twice the price? And pay another premium for a mobile provider that doesn't actively track you & sells profile data? I'm not so sure about it being added just because they can make a few extra bucks. I believe it becomes part of the revenue system and drives down the margin they make on the actual product. Once somebody starts, everybody has to follow or they can't compete because their product is expensive. With privacy minded people being a small minority, it probably doesn't make sense financially to cater to them in many markets. Emails is relatively simple, building a cell phone, or running a cell network, is not, so you don't do it for a handful of users.
    - Silhouette 8y ago
      What you describe may well be what is happening, and that is exactly why it is necessary to intervene at this point. By the same argument, if we didn't have safety or environmental standards, manufacturers would be in a race to the bottom in those areas as well. Sometimes you just have to say that a certain behaviour isn't acceptable, for the good of all. If that puts prices up, so be it, but I'm betting that since people managed to make and sell these products at commercially viable levels for many years before all this data grabbing came along, they'll manage just fine if the grabbing gets cut off as well.
      - luckylion 8y ago
        I agree completely, if we want to change that, government has to be involved. There's little to no incentive for a company to change. I doubt many users are fine with a price increase, and for some it may be prohibitive, and they'll not be happy to no longer be able to afford a smart phone. If your electricity provider only offered affordable rates in exchange for giving up a certain amount of privacy, I'm sure most people would still go for it. Most people need electricity much more than they need privacy.
        pdimitar 8y ago
- Twisell 8y ago
  Be real on your price tag here, I pay 30€ a year (since around ten years) for an email/domain provider. More mainstream I also pay 2,99€ a month for iCloud storage wich also include email (should I wanted to) and lots of services. Theses services are cheap, they are just not as mainstream as they should be. But your hundred dollar a month estimation is just a fear mongering excuse to stick with privacy reselling model. On the side note, Google should start to wonder what drive the double digit growth of Apple services revenues. iTools was an experiment, .Mac was clumsy, MobileMe was a setback... But I think Apple pretty much nailed it with iCloud.
  - luckylion 8y ago
    I'm not (knowingly) engaging in fear mongering, I just looked up what I'd pay at ProtonMail (privacy first) to have equal storage space I get at GMail (19GB; privacy last), and that's 20-30 euros. Looking at a web search engine, how much would that cost me? What about a place that syncs my images from my cell phone? Or Analytics for my blog? An OS for my smart phone? Google provides all that for free and finances it by mining the data users give them in return. Apple gets something like $9bn a year to let Google be the default search engine. That's revenue for Apple, coming directly from Google's wish to get more data. If you remove that, will iphones be 10-20% more expensive?
movedx 8y ago
> What we're missing today is the option to use normal products and services without any of this data sharing and telemetry going on when they aren't necessary for the normal functioning of the product or service You hit the nail on the head here, as far as I'm concerned. I want to be able to use my real name, date of birth, gender; share my location or my medical information; input my financial details or my real phone number, all the while knowing that it's being used for exactly the purpose I keyed it in for to being with and not something else, on the side, via a third party, that I never asked for, paid for, or agreed to (because it was a buried in a 90,000 word legal document.) I believe we will start to see a big wave of indie app developers bringing forward very privacy friendly apps just like we're seeing a big push in the indie gaming market for short, story heavy games opposing the 100-person Battle Royale, no-story junk we have today.
- Kalium 8y ago
  I'd love for you to be right. I would love for users to be happily willing to pony up for services that respect their privacy instead of free ones that don't. How much do you think your average user is willing to pay each month for an email account?
  - thekyle 8y ago
    I think it's pretty clear that the average user isn't willing to pay anything for an email account.

luckylion 8y ago

They are often "necessary" for monetization though, aren't they? A few privacy-minded people would probably pay a few bucks a month to use Google without tracking, ads etc, but I doubt that it would be a lot. And it wouldn't be cheap either, I'm afraid. Let's say you take what Gmail offers for free and buy it at ProtonMail - that'd be 20-30 euros a month just for Email. Who would spend hundreds of dollars a month to get today's average digital experience but with solid privacy? And who could actually afford to?

Silhouette 8y ago
It's not so much Google I'm worried about. I can choose to use other online services. But I should be able to buy a car without the vendor tracking me everywhere I go, or a phone without it becoming a beacon that stores use to follow me around as I do my shopping, or a TV that just lets me watch a show without phoning home to tell the manufacturer all about it. None of the data sharing in these cases is in any way essential to the device I've bought, it's just being added because it can be, as an extra revenue stream at the expense of my privacy and potentially security.
- luckylion 8y ago
  I agree, but it would increase the prices, right? Would you buy a phone that doesn't include "we'll sell the user's data" in the financial planning at twice the price? And pay another premium for a mobile provider that doesn't actively track you & sells profile data? I'm not so sure about it being added just because they can make a few extra bucks. I believe it becomes part of the revenue system and drives down the margin they make on the actual product. Once somebody starts, everybody has to follow or they can't compete because their product is expensive. With privacy minded people being a small minority, it probably doesn't make sense financially to cater to them in many markets. Emails is relatively simple, building a cell phone, or running a cell network, is not, so you don't do it for a handful of users.
  - Silhouette 8y ago
    What you describe may well be what is happening, and that is exactly why it is necessary to intervene at this point. By the same argument, if we didn't have safety or environmental standards, manufacturers would be in a race to the bottom in those areas as well. Sometimes you just have to say that a certain behaviour isn't acceptable, for the good of all. If that puts prices up, so be it, but I'm betting that since people managed to make and sell these products at commercially viable levels for many years before all this data grabbing came along, they'll manage just fine if the grabbing gets cut off as well.
    - luckylion 8y ago
      I agree completely, if we want to change that, government has to be involved. There's little to no incentive for a company to change. I doubt many users are fine with a price increase, and for some it may be prohibitive, and they'll not be happy to no longer be able to afford a smart phone. If your electricity provider only offered affordable rates in exchange for giving up a certain amount of privacy, I'm sure most people would still go for it. Most people need electricity much more than they need privacy.
      - pdimitar 8y ago
Twisell 8y ago
Be real on your price tag here, I pay 30€ a year (since around ten years) for an email/domain provider. More mainstream I also pay 2,99€ a month for iCloud storage wich also include email (should I wanted to) and lots of services. Theses services are cheap, they are just not as mainstream as they should be. But your hundred dollar a month estimation is just a fear mongering excuse to stick with privacy reselling model. On the side note, Google should start to wonder what drive the double digit growth of Apple services revenues. iTools was an experiment, .Mac was clumsy, MobileMe was a setback... But I think Apple pretty much nailed it with iCloud.
- luckylion 8y ago
  I'm not (knowingly) engaging in fear mongering, I just looked up what I'd pay at ProtonMail (privacy first) to have equal storage space I get at GMail (19GB; privacy last), and that's 20-30 euros. Looking at a web search engine, how much would that cost me? What about a place that syncs my images from my cell phone? Or Analytics for my blog? An OS for my smart phone? Google provides all that for free and finances it by mining the data users give them in return. Apple gets something like $9bn a year to let Google be the default search engine. That's revenue for Apple, coming directly from Google's wish to get more data. If you remove that, will iphones be 10-20% more expensive?

movedx 8y ago

> What we're missing today is the option to use normal products and services without any of this data sharing and telemetry going on when they aren't necessary for the normal functioning of the product or service You hit the nail on the head here, as far as I'm concerned. I want to be able to use my real name, date of birth, gender; share my location or my medical information; input my financial details or my real phone number, all the while knowing that it's being used for exactly the purpose I keyed it in for to being with and not something else, on the side, via a third party, that I never asked for, paid for, or agreed to (because it was a buried in a 90,000 word legal document.) I believe we will start to see a big wave of indie app developers bringing forward very privacy friendly apps just like we're seeing a big push in the indie gaming market for short, story heavy games opposing the 100-person Battle Royale, no-story junk we have today.

Kalium 8y ago
I'd love for you to be right. I would love for users to be happily willing to pony up for services that respect their privacy instead of free ones that don't. How much do you think your average user is willing to pay each month for an email account?
- thekyle 8y ago
  I think it's pretty clear that the average user isn't willing to pay anything for an email account.