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Transpiling to JavaScript is a bug on the web, not a feature. node and npm is a shit show. Having to deal with it a couple days ago. I wish that entire ecosyste

Transpiling to JavaScript is a bug on the web, not a feature. node and npm is a shit show. Having to deal with it a couple days ago. I wish that entire ecosystem would just die. I can make a sophisticated python web app with 20 packages. Or in JavaScript I'll need a few hundred that have massive vulnerabilities and conflicts. Hell npm reported the most modern packages I was installing had over 200 vulnerabilities. JavaScript pretty much guarantees shit code. I'll be downvoted to hell, but whatever. Js sucks.

sl1ck731 8y ago
I think this is a symptom of being accessible not the language or its tools. NPM is fantastic and anytime I use Go or anything like that I miss it sorely. Even javascript itself isn't "bad". There are ugly parts but anything written in the modern spec is basically semantically the same as any other language like python. The problem is that people writing packages on the backend are bootcamp grads, frontend devs, and any number of other people who don't take the backend as seriously as someone who has been devoted to it using a non-javascript language. I think the other issue is the javascript community wants to reinvent itself every couple months, instead of having one project that becomes defacto for x function over many years.
- paulie_a 8y ago
  Npm might be a good tool like pip. But unlike pip it encourages installing shit. Even react which from limited experience is pretty cool. But apparently there must be dozens possibly hundreds of true senior devs in the US. Most everyone else fucks it up. And I agree there is a shallow depth in the js world. Everyone wants the new shiny toy instead of using an evolving toolkit. JS is the embodiment of ADD.
- theamk 8y ago
  I don't think it is possible to separate language from tools or community. Those things are always together. It is entirely possible that Javascript itself is an OK language, but it is too late now. The community has already decided that packages should be tiny, that changing prototype of "array" object is an acceptable thing to do, that failing fast is bad and the best reaction to errors is to mess up the page layout in the unexpected way, and so on. Maybe one day, Javascript will re-invent itself and get reliable software engineering practices. But I highly doubt that -- there are countless people who know the laguage already, and they are not going to be changing their opinions overnight.
  - untog 8y ago
    > changing prototype of "array" object is an acceptable thing to do Uhh, no? I code in JS every day and do nothing of the sort, and I would object if I saw it. > failing fast is bad and the best reaction to errors is to mess up the page layout in the unexpected way I don't even know what you mean by this, but the fact that you're conflating JS with "the page" suggests to me that you're not that familiar with server-side JS (which has no "page") and the enormous amount of code that is written to be compatible with it.
    - coldtea 8y ago
      >Uhh, no? I code in JS every day and do nothing of the sort, and I would object if I saw it. If you use Babel you already have that, and just don't know about it. Most "upcoming features" shims do just that.
  - ikfmpwdsoz 8y ago
    JavaScript is a god language. Changing Array.prototype is very much considered an antipattern, except in the case of shims, where it's really useful. JavaScript is reinventing itself, introducing a nice, traditional OOP facade with `class`, and making improvements to functional-ish programming with `let` (as opposed to `var`), arrow functions, and object and array destructuring. The DOM is still very much a "try to display something at all costs" mess that doesn't at all fail fast, but most of the things that you want to happen are indeed happening!
  - coldtea 8y ago
    >I don't think it is possible to separate language from tools or community. Those things are always together. I don't think so, you can always just use the language in your own style and cherry-pick any tools that align with it. Like e.g. the Play framework ignored the main standards and idioms of Java development in its day. Or how every game studio just uses its own version of C++ and forbids tons of features.
- EduardoBautista 8y ago
  Well, Go is not a great example for dependency management either. That’s like saying how much you miss being slapped in the face after now being punched in the face.
you_owe_me 8y ago
Amen brother. It just baffles me that most people here in HN enjoy working with JavaScript and its derivatives. I feel bad for them, like when you see a 14 year old kid smoking and drinking
- sctb 8y ago
  Would you please re-read the guidelines and stop posting unsubstantive comments? https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html
coldtea 8y ago
>node and npm is a shit show. Having to deal with it a couple days ago. I wish that entire ecosystem would just die. "I had a bad experience (being unexperienced and only delving into that ecosystem a couple days ago) so it's bad"
- paulie_a 8y ago
  Or delving into it 16 years ago, teaching classes on it in college. So a little bit longer than a few days and while not a complete expert I can say I have some experience. How about you? Do you consider yourself a senior after a couple of years of js?
  - coldtea 8y ago
    Well, I've did JS since 2000, so I'd consider myself a senior. There's lots to learn, and early Node ecosystem was immature, but it's today quite mature, well supported, with a steady update cycle, good backwards compatibility, and no worse than most of the other options. If people want to go wild with fad frameworks and libs every year or so, that's their thing. But you can have absolutely stable systems with very few dependencies if you wish so.
    - paulie_a 8y ago
      You can, but actually seeing it in the wild is rare. I consider myself full stack, but I try to avoid anything js because I'm inhereting someone elses shit ecosystem. If I was forced to on a couple projects I've seen I'd ask for 10k raise.
macspoofing 8y ago
>I'll be downvoted to hell, but whatever. Js sucks Ok. Now that you got this off your chest and you want to build an application that can run inside a browser (i.e. a platform available to billions)...what do you do?

sl1ck731 8y ago

I think this is a symptom of being accessible not the language or its tools. NPM is fantastic and anytime I use Go or anything like that I miss it sorely. Even javascript itself isn't "bad". There are ugly parts but anything written in the modern spec is basically semantically the same as any other language like python. The problem is that people writing packages on the backend are bootcamp grads, frontend devs, and any number of other people who don't take the backend as seriously as someone who has been devoted to it using a non-javascript language. I think the other issue is the javascript community wants to reinvent itself every couple months, instead of having one project that becomes defacto for x function over many years.

paulie_a 8y ago
Npm might be a good tool like pip. But unlike pip it encourages installing shit. Even react which from limited experience is pretty cool. But apparently there must be dozens possibly hundreds of true senior devs in the US. Most everyone else fucks it up. And I agree there is a shallow depth in the js world. Everyone wants the new shiny toy instead of using an evolving toolkit. JS is the embodiment of ADD.
theamk 8y ago
I don't think it is possible to separate language from tools or community. Those things are always together. It is entirely possible that Javascript itself is an OK language, but it is too late now. The community has already decided that packages should be tiny, that changing prototype of "array" object is an acceptable thing to do, that failing fast is bad and the best reaction to errors is to mess up the page layout in the unexpected way, and so on. Maybe one day, Javascript will re-invent itself and get reliable software engineering practices. But I highly doubt that -- there are countless people who know the laguage already, and they are not going to be changing their opinions overnight.
- untog 8y ago
  > changing prototype of "array" object is an acceptable thing to do Uhh, no? I code in JS every day and do nothing of the sort, and I would object if I saw it. > failing fast is bad and the best reaction to errors is to mess up the page layout in the unexpected way I don't even know what you mean by this, but the fact that you're conflating JS with "the page" suggests to me that you're not that familiar with server-side JS (which has no "page") and the enormous amount of code that is written to be compatible with it.
  - coldtea 8y ago
    >Uhh, no? I code in JS every day and do nothing of the sort, and I would object if I saw it. If you use Babel you already have that, and just don't know about it. Most "upcoming features" shims do just that.
- ikfmpwdsoz 8y ago
  JavaScript is a god language. Changing Array.prototype is very much considered an antipattern, except in the case of shims, where it's really useful. JavaScript is reinventing itself, introducing a nice, traditional OOP facade with `class`, and making improvements to functional-ish programming with `let` (as opposed to `var`), arrow functions, and object and array destructuring. The DOM is still very much a "try to display something at all costs" mess that doesn't at all fail fast, but most of the things that you want to happen are indeed happening!
- coldtea 8y ago
  >I don't think it is possible to separate language from tools or community. Those things are always together. I don't think so, you can always just use the language in your own style and cherry-pick any tools that align with it. Like e.g. the Play framework ignored the main standards and idioms of Java development in its day. Or how every game studio just uses its own version of C++ and forbids tons of features.
EduardoBautista 8y ago
Well, Go is not a great example for dependency management either. That’s like saying how much you miss being slapped in the face after now being punched in the face.

you_owe_me 8y ago

Amen brother. It just baffles me that most people here in HN enjoy working with JavaScript and its derivatives. I feel bad for them, like when you see a 14 year old kid smoking and drinking

sctb 8y ago
Would you please re-read the guidelines and stop posting unsubstantive comments? https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html

coldtea 8y ago

>node and npm is a shit show. Having to deal with it a couple days ago. I wish that entire ecosystem would just die. "I had a bad experience (being unexperienced and only delving into that ecosystem a couple days ago) so it's bad"

paulie_a 8y ago
Or delving into it 16 years ago, teaching classes on it in college. So a little bit longer than a few days and while not a complete expert I can say I have some experience. How about you? Do you consider yourself a senior after a couple of years of js?
- coldtea 8y ago
  Well, I've did JS since 2000, so I'd consider myself a senior. There's lots to learn, and early Node ecosystem was immature, but it's today quite mature, well supported, with a steady update cycle, good backwards compatibility, and no worse than most of the other options. If people want to go wild with fad frameworks and libs every year or so, that's their thing. But you can have absolutely stable systems with very few dependencies if you wish so.
  - paulie_a 8y ago
    You can, but actually seeing it in the wild is rare. I consider myself full stack, but I try to avoid anything js because I'm inhereting someone elses shit ecosystem. If I was forced to on a couple projects I've seen I'd ask for 10k raise.

macspoofing 8y ago

>I'll be downvoted to hell, but whatever. Js sucks Ok. Now that you got this off your chest and you want to build an application that can run inside a browser (i.e. a platform available to billions)...what do you do?