4 ms·

> The strategic situation is that Democrats care about the country, and Trump does not. However, not enough Americans are convinced of the latter fact. I'm not

> The strategic situation is that Democrats care about the country, and Trump does not. However, not enough Americans are convinced of the latter fact. I'm not an American, just an immigrant. Historically this isn't about caring, it's just about politics.

bayesian_horse 8y ago
Normally it really isn't about caring for the overall good of country. Politicians competing for voters all care about their country, or at the very least have to act as if. In this case, it is different, because Trump cares more about his "win" in this issue than about the country. Or even about winning reelection, because everything is pointing to public opinion being strongly against what he is doing right now. However, the nation is hurting badly under the shutdown, and it is going to get worse. Even so Trump is blamed by a majority, and thus "politically" losing more, at some point the democrats will have to concede that the only way to stop the damage is to give in. But by then, there will be no doubt in most voters' minds that Trump fundamentally doesn't care. And this makes him unelectable for a larger majority and may even pierce his senate-armor against impeachment.
- tertius 8y ago
  > at some point the democrats will have to concede that the only way to stop the damage is to give in. Which would be the point where your 'they care more' hypothesis would become true. So are they just wanting to hurt him politically right now?
  - bayesian_horse 8y ago
    Right now they think they are playing the game "who loses more, politically", in which the president is losing bigly. Or at least they act as if they believe the president cares about his reelection chances. But as more and more time passes, and he loses more and more support, it will become obvious to even some of his supporters, that he will burn down the country to get his way. And at that point he may get his wall, but he loses everything else.
    - tertius 8y ago
      I don't care about him all that much. As you imply, he'll do whatever he wants to get whatever he wants. I care about things moving forward. And if we assume that he's not about that, then we need to start moving our gaze to those who are the actors that should be acting correctly and having things move forward. They're not doing that.
      - bayesian_horse 8y ago
        I'm not an American. I think your constitution basically sucks, with the mitigating factor that it was very practical and relatively democratic compared to other states at the time it was written. One of the huge criticisms that I have is that you can't get rid of an administration. Impeachment seems to be virtually impossible, whatever Trump does or did. And even then you get a vice president who ran on the same ticket and profited from the same criminal behavior. In Germany, we can get rid of the chancellor within days or weeks, depending on the procedure. We also can't have split governments sabotaging everything. Every vote counts the same etc.

bayesian_horse 8y ago

Normally it really isn't about caring for the overall good of country. Politicians competing for voters all care about their country, or at the very least have to act as if. In this case, it is different, because Trump cares more about his "win" in this issue than about the country. Or even about winning reelection, because everything is pointing to public opinion being strongly against what he is doing right now. However, the nation is hurting badly under the shutdown, and it is going to get worse. Even so Trump is blamed by a majority, and thus "politically" losing more, at some point the democrats will have to concede that the only way to stop the damage is to give in. But by then, there will be no doubt in most voters' minds that Trump fundamentally doesn't care. And this makes him unelectable for a larger majority and may even pierce his senate-armor against impeachment.

tertius 8y ago
> at some point the democrats will have to concede that the only way to stop the damage is to give in. Which would be the point where your 'they care more' hypothesis would become true. So are they just wanting to hurt him politically right now?
- bayesian_horse 8y ago
  Right now they think they are playing the game "who loses more, politically", in which the president is losing bigly. Or at least they act as if they believe the president cares about his reelection chances. But as more and more time passes, and he loses more and more support, it will become obvious to even some of his supporters, that he will burn down the country to get his way. And at that point he may get his wall, but he loses everything else.
  - tertius 8y ago
    I don't care about him all that much. As you imply, he'll do whatever he wants to get whatever he wants. I care about things moving forward. And if we assume that he's not about that, then we need to start moving our gaze to those who are the actors that should be acting correctly and having things move forward. They're not doing that.
    - bayesian_horse 8y ago
      I'm not an American. I think your constitution basically sucks, with the mitigating factor that it was very practical and relatively democratic compared to other states at the time it was written. One of the huge criticisms that I have is that you can't get rid of an administration. Impeachment seems to be virtually impossible, whatever Trump does or did. And even then you get a vice president who ran on the same ticket and profited from the same criminal behavior. In Germany, we can get rid of the chancellor within days or weeks, depending on the procedure. We also can't have split governments sabotaging everything. Every vote counts the same etc.