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> One's outlook and productivity changes with time and age On what data do you make this statement? A quick cursory search shows its completely false and based

by lhinds 8y ago

> One's outlook and productivity changes with time and age On what data do you make this statement? A quick cursory search shows its completely false and based on not much more than ignorance or prejudice.

omeid2 8y ago
Are you suggesting that there is no age-related cognitive decline? https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4767530/ https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4767530/ https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4015335/ https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4015335/ https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2683339/ https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2683339/
- deleted 8y ago
  [deleted]
- perfmode 8y ago
  Cognitive decline is not the same as drop in productivity.
  - anticensor 8y ago
    It is correlated as aging also slows reaction. Slower reaction and worsened cognition together put a ceiling on how fast you can produce.
    - sifoobar 8y ago
      Produce what, exactly? Because anything beyond pushing a button N times per hour is going to benefit from experience, and it gets more important with task complexity. I would much rather have someone with 30 years of experience writing code I depend on than a 20-something who can type 10 times as fast.
    - tertius 8y ago
      Because you say so? Because you feel it's intuitive?
      - omeid2 8y ago
        This Handwavy denial of a biological process does not help the discussion or anyone on the long term. Reaction time and reasoning skills are cognitive skills that declines with age, specially in relation to complex tasks. The studies are worth reading or skimming thorough at least, more importantly, everyone should look into how they can manage aging tax on cognitive skills, you can't stop it, but you can slow it down, just like physical health.
        mikeash 8y ago
        Experience increases with age. That is also a concrete biological fact. If you want to claim that your argument is based on fact rather than opinion, you need to prove that the factors you mention outweigh experience. I don’t believe it’s true, and certainly isn’t proven.
        omeid2 8y ago
        Experience is not a biological aspect, it is "knowledge or practical wisdom gained from what one has observed, encountered, or undergone". More importantly, I am yet to get my hands on any research that shows there is conclusive correlation between age and wisdom or experience. I would be keen to read up some!
        mikeash 8y ago
        Experience is just what happens to your brain with more exposure to things. Time is a fundamental part of it, so it clearly must correlate with age. If you’re going to argue that experience and age may be uncorrwlated then I have to conclude that you’re not making a sincere argument.
        omeid2 8y ago
    - perfmode 8y ago
      Experience counts for nothing? If you agree that experience counts for something, how do you find the equilibrium between experience and cognitive decline? Do you purport to know this without evidence? How can you make these claims?
    - coldtea 8y ago
      >It is correlated as aging also slows reaction. Slower reaction Slower reaction in terms of milliseconds and for reflexes. Not for thinking and programming -- which experience helps you improve, understand computer systems more holistically, know to recognize tons of patterns that emerge again and again, and deep thinking is what makes the difference. So unless programmers in your company also have to juggle balls or avoid daggers, the "slower reaction" is irrelevant.
    - chillwaves 8y ago
      I feel like I am taking crazy pills as I read down these thread chains. Exactly what kind of jobs are you all doing? Is everyone on here a professional gamer? Nothing about my job requires me to have heightened reflexes or high APM.
    - SamReidHughes 8y ago
      Realistically cognitive decline, especially that sort, isn't the reason developers in their 40's and 50's are more frequently worth laying off. I'd rather hire the me of my 40's and 50's than the me of my 20's. (I'm in my 30's.) I wonder how much of it is that bad younger developers are more likely to attrition themselves, but older ones stay. So you get these old guys who, after five to ten years, it's really obvious they've got to go.
    - perfmode 8y ago
      Your argument produces holes at a greater rate than they can be patched. You’re assuming that rate of production and reaction time are the relevant factors under consideration.
OliverJones 8y ago
True. We gain in experience, knowledge, and webs of relationships as we age. When somebody proposes a project, we sometimes know enough to say "we tried something like that on the frobozz contract. Here's what we learned about the pitfalls." Productivity: Maybe older workers can't / won't pull lots of all-nighters. The same is true of working mothers. But we plan ahead and get our work done. The anti-discrimination laws aren't supposed to shackle companies to pointless costs and dead-weight people. They're intended to promote company culture that values people for what they bring to the table. What is a company to do when external forces throw it into relentless decline? It takes a lot of guts to exit entire businesses or markets and refocus. Closing an office or shutting down an entire department isn't age discrimination. It's still nasty. Look, western culture allows companies to have limited liability (to be corporations). The culture grants them patents for their inventions (hi IBM!). We trust them to take lots of risks to build their businesses, and give good rewards for success. In return it's reasonable to expect compliance with laws.

by lhinds 8y ago

omeid2 8y ago

Are you suggesting that there is no age-related cognitive decline? https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4767530/ https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4767530/ https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4015335/ https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4015335/ https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2683339/ https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2683339/

deleted 8y ago
[deleted]
perfmode 8y ago
Cognitive decline is not the same as drop in productivity.
- anticensor 8y ago
  It is correlated as aging also slows reaction. Slower reaction and worsened cognition together put a ceiling on how fast you can produce.
  - sifoobar 8y ago
    Produce what, exactly? Because anything beyond pushing a button N times per hour is going to benefit from experience, and it gets more important with task complexity. I would much rather have someone with 30 years of experience writing code I depend on than a 20-something who can type 10 times as fast.
  - tertius 8y ago
    Because you say so? Because you feel it's intuitive?
    - omeid2 8y ago
      This Handwavy denial of a biological process does not help the discussion or anyone on the long term. Reaction time and reasoning skills are cognitive skills that declines with age, specially in relation to complex tasks. The studies are worth reading or skimming thorough at least, more importantly, everyone should look into how they can manage aging tax on cognitive skills, you can't stop it, but you can slow it down, just like physical health.
      - mikeash 8y ago
        Experience increases with age. That is also a concrete biological fact. If you want to claim that your argument is based on fact rather than opinion, you need to prove that the factors you mention outweigh experience. I don’t believe it’s true, and certainly isn’t proven.
        omeid2 8y ago
        Experience is not a biological aspect, it is "knowledge or practical wisdom gained from what one has observed, encountered, or undergone". More importantly, I am yet to get my hands on any research that shows there is conclusive correlation between age and wisdom or experience. I would be keen to read up some!
        mikeash 8y ago
        Experience is just what happens to your brain with more exposure to things. Time is a fundamental part of it, so it clearly must correlate with age. If you’re going to argue that experience and age may be uncorrwlated then I have to conclude that you’re not making a sincere argument.
        omeid2 8y ago
  - perfmode 8y ago
    Experience counts for nothing? If you agree that experience counts for something, how do you find the equilibrium between experience and cognitive decline? Do you purport to know this without evidence? How can you make these claims?
  - coldtea 8y ago
    >It is correlated as aging also slows reaction. Slower reaction Slower reaction in terms of milliseconds and for reflexes. Not for thinking and programming -- which experience helps you improve, understand computer systems more holistically, know to recognize tons of patterns that emerge again and again, and deep thinking is what makes the difference. So unless programmers in your company also have to juggle balls or avoid daggers, the "slower reaction" is irrelevant.
  - chillwaves 8y ago
    I feel like I am taking crazy pills as I read down these thread chains. Exactly what kind of jobs are you all doing? Is everyone on here a professional gamer? Nothing about my job requires me to have heightened reflexes or high APM.
  - SamReidHughes 8y ago
    Realistically cognitive decline, especially that sort, isn't the reason developers in their 40's and 50's are more frequently worth laying off. I'd rather hire the me of my 40's and 50's than the me of my 20's. (I'm in my 30's.) I wonder how much of it is that bad younger developers are more likely to attrition themselves, but older ones stay. So you get these old guys who, after five to ten years, it's really obvious they've got to go.
  - perfmode 8y ago
    Your argument produces holes at a greater rate than they can be patched. You’re assuming that rate of production and reaction time are the relevant factors under consideration.

OliverJones 8y ago

True. We gain in experience, knowledge, and webs of relationships as we age. When somebody proposes a project, we sometimes know enough to say "we tried something like that on the frobozz contract. Here's what we learned about the pitfalls." Productivity: Maybe older workers can't / won't pull lots of all-nighters. The same is true of working mothers. But we plan ahead and get our work done. The anti-discrimination laws aren't supposed to shackle companies to pointless costs and dead-weight people. They're intended to promote company culture that values people for what they bring to the table. What is a company to do when external forces throw it into relentless decline? It takes a lot of guts to exit entire businesses or markets and refocus. Closing an office or shutting down an entire department isn't age discrimination. It's still nasty. Look, western culture allows companies to have limited liability (to be corporations). The culture grants them patents for their inventions (hi IBM!). We trust them to take lots of risks to build their businesses, and give good rewards for success. In return it's reasonable to expect compliance with laws.