5 ms·

It's interesting that software interviews have degenerated into literal auditions. Just as with auditions, you need to train specifically for them. Is there re

by jahaja 8y ago

It's interesting that software interviews have degenerated into literal auditions. Just as with auditions, you need to train specifically for them. Is there really a reason why software jobs can't hire in a blue-collar fashion where there's a background/experience + sanity check and a subsequent trial period? Even looking beyond that, is there any similar profession where interviews like these take place? I'm starting to think this may be in part be related to the phenomenon of bullshit jobs. Basically that people in administrative roles need to have something to do, and as such, the interviews themselves have over time expanded to as much as multiple days.

zeroonetwothree 8y ago
Why would anyone with an existing job ever take another job with a "trial period"? You are basically excluding your most desirable hires with this system.
- jahaja 8y ago
  So the idea is that a current job makes one more desirable, but we'll then discard that fact and still put you through an elaborate audition? Anyway, almost all jobs where I live comes with a trial period of max 6 months, albeit negotiable. So it seems to work.
- lucb1e 8y ago
  If I were looking to leave my job, I'd not sign with another employer if I wasn't quite sure I'd want to stay with them, trial period or not. Is it different outside of western Europe in terms of trial periods? We (afaik) always have a trial period: in the Netherlands it's typically 1-2 months, in Germany it's typically 3-6 months; either way, there is always a period where both parties can fire the other with zero to two weeks notice. It is not the norm to be fired in that time, but it happens (from my limited anecdotal evidence, I'd estimate one in 10-30 hires, and most of the time both parties agree it's not a good fit).
opportune 8y ago
Would you want to work with someone who's just a warm body that claims to have experience in the field? Especially in such a high paying field where any random is highly incentivized to just pretend they know how to make software even if they can't pass fizzbuzz? Clearly interviews are flawed. But I've worked with warm bodies hired through h1b-abuse programs and no matter how much they claim to know about something, a lot of them are just bullshiters. I would never want to work at a place where people with their level of skills could join the regular teams as peers. I see whiteboarding simply as a logical statistical filtering mechanism. Do they filter out people that are lazy or have difficult personalities? No. But at the difficulty level of places like Google they filter out people who are really bad at programming (which there are a lot of) every single time. They also happen to filter out people who are good at programming too, but enough pass the whiteboarding that the organization can hire to meet their needs, so they don't care that maybe applicant X didn't pass. High false negative rate, low false positive rate
- jahaja 8y ago
  Why would that warm-bodies scenario even happen? I think there's an assumption here that these tests actually provide a lower false positive rate than a solid experience check or whatever non-puzzle interviews do. After all, one stark difference to an audition for a ballet, is that you can't fake your ballet skills, however, memorizing CS stuff may actually be possible. Furthermore, the hard part to memorize are the things that would be asked in a good non-puzzle interview anyway. Clearly there's room for pragmatism for such as interns, newly graduated, relocations etc. Honestly, I think they're primarily filtering out based on themselves as the target image.
  - opportune 8y ago
    From what I've heard from hiring managers, when you open a position and interview applicants without the use of headhunting, the majority of applicants are wildly under-qualified, even if they do have some relevant experience. Also, I see no reason not to combine both a background check and a technical interview. You have no way of knowing what someone's actual contributions to a previous software project are, even with a background check; maybe they were about as productive as an observer even if they understood the project at a high enough level to explain it.
draw_down 8y ago
Well, first of all, define "sanity check". About trial periods, there are places that do those, and a lot of people hate it. There is a lot of risk involved in leaving a permanent gig to "try out" for another one. If they let you go at the end of the trial period then you're out on your ass. I personally would never do this if I were already employed- there's nothing in it for me but downside. But more broadly, lots of places try these different avenues for hiring and inevitably some large portion of potential employees hate it. Try doing take-home tests? Well, those are biased toward people with more free time, so obviously you're discriminating against people who have children. Interviews using Coderpad? Now you're discriminating against people who get anxious in the moment and need more time to think. This is not easy or simple.
- jahaja 8y ago
  Sanity check for me is what every company in almost every field do. Basically the main reason for interviews to exists. To confirm that what's on the CV and so on seem accurate using an in-person interview. Assuming that you're American, what do you even mean by the risk of a trial? Aren't you guys on a permanent trial period with your labour laws?
  - deleted 8y ago
    [deleted]
kevan 8y ago
> is there any similar profession where interviews like these take place? Based on some conversations with friends it sounds like Big 4 consulting is similar. The behavioral questions are the same, and instead of coding they have "case questions". >No consulting interview would be complete without case interview questions that test a candidate's ability to think strategically about problems...make it a conversation, and explain every step of your thinking/process along the way. Again: showing that you can arrive at a solution after thoughtful questioning and analysis is far more important in these questions than being able to throw out a brilliant new strategy on the fly, so focus on the process, and allow it to lead you to a solution. [1] http://www.vault.com/blog/interviewing/26-interview-questions-the-top-10-consulting-firms-ask/ http://www.vault.com/blog/interviewing/26-interview-question...

by jahaja 8y ago

zeroonetwothree 8y ago

Why would anyone with an existing job ever take another job with a "trial period"? You are basically excluding your most desirable hires with this system.

jahaja 8y ago
So the idea is that a current job makes one more desirable, but we'll then discard that fact and still put you through an elaborate audition? Anyway, almost all jobs where I live comes with a trial period of max 6 months, albeit negotiable. So it seems to work.
lucb1e 8y ago
If I were looking to leave my job, I'd not sign with another employer if I wasn't quite sure I'd want to stay with them, trial period or not. Is it different outside of western Europe in terms of trial periods? We (afaik) always have a trial period: in the Netherlands it's typically 1-2 months, in Germany it's typically 3-6 months; either way, there is always a period where both parties can fire the other with zero to two weeks notice. It is not the norm to be fired in that time, but it happens (from my limited anecdotal evidence, I'd estimate one in 10-30 hires, and most of the time both parties agree it's not a good fit).

opportune 8y ago

Would you want to work with someone who's just a warm body that claims to have experience in the field? Especially in such a high paying field where any random is highly incentivized to just pretend they know how to make software even if they can't pass fizzbuzz? Clearly interviews are flawed. But I've worked with warm bodies hired through h1b-abuse programs and no matter how much they claim to know about something, a lot of them are just bullshiters. I would never want to work at a place where people with their level of skills could join the regular teams as peers. I see whiteboarding simply as a logical statistical filtering mechanism. Do they filter out people that are lazy or have difficult personalities? No. But at the difficulty level of places like Google they filter out people who are really bad at programming (which there are a lot of) every single time. They also happen to filter out people who are good at programming too, but enough pass the whiteboarding that the organization can hire to meet their needs, so they don't care that maybe applicant X didn't pass. High false negative rate, low false positive rate

jahaja 8y ago
Why would that warm-bodies scenario even happen? I think there's an assumption here that these tests actually provide a lower false positive rate than a solid experience check or whatever non-puzzle interviews do. After all, one stark difference to an audition for a ballet, is that you can't fake your ballet skills, however, memorizing CS stuff may actually be possible. Furthermore, the hard part to memorize are the things that would be asked in a good non-puzzle interview anyway. Clearly there's room for pragmatism for such as interns, newly graduated, relocations etc. Honestly, I think they're primarily filtering out based on themselves as the target image.
- opportune 8y ago
  From what I've heard from hiring managers, when you open a position and interview applicants without the use of headhunting, the majority of applicants are wildly under-qualified, even if they do have some relevant experience. Also, I see no reason not to combine both a background check and a technical interview. You have no way of knowing what someone's actual contributions to a previous software project are, even with a background check; maybe they were about as productive as an observer even if they understood the project at a high enough level to explain it.

draw_down 8y ago

Well, first of all, define "sanity check". About trial periods, there are places that do those, and a lot of people hate it. There is a lot of risk involved in leaving a permanent gig to "try out" for another one. If they let you go at the end of the trial period then you're out on your ass. I personally would never do this if I were already employed- there's nothing in it for me but downside. But more broadly, lots of places try these different avenues for hiring and inevitably some large portion of potential employees hate it. Try doing take-home tests? Well, those are biased toward people with more free time, so obviously you're discriminating against people who have children. Interviews using Coderpad? Now you're discriminating against people who get anxious in the moment and need more time to think. This is not easy or simple.

jahaja 8y ago
Sanity check for me is what every company in almost every field do. Basically the main reason for interviews to exists. To confirm that what's on the CV and so on seem accurate using an in-person interview. Assuming that you're American, what do you even mean by the risk of a trial? Aren't you guys on a permanent trial period with your labour laws?
- deleted 8y ago
  [deleted]

kevan 8y ago

> is there any similar profession where interviews like these take place? Based on some conversations with friends it sounds like Big 4 consulting is similar. The behavioral questions are the same, and instead of coding they have "case questions". >No consulting interview would be complete without case interview questions that test a candidate's ability to think strategically about problems...make it a conversation, and explain every step of your thinking/process along the way. Again: showing that you can arrive at a solution after thoughtful questioning and analysis is far more important in these questions than being able to throw out a brilliant new strategy on the fly, so focus on the process, and allow it to lead you to a solution. [1] http://www.vault.com/blog/interviewing/26-interview-questions-the-top-10-consulting-firms-ask/ http://www.vault.com/blog/interviewing/26-interview-question...