6 ms·

I am surrounded by chicken farms, and the farmers who own and operate them. Almost all of them are family owned farms who sell to Tyson. I can say with confide

by oblib 8y ago

I am surrounded by chicken farms, and the farmers who own and operate them. Almost all of them are family owned farms who sell to Tyson. I can say with confidence that they work hard and are very diligent in maintaining a high standard of quality. It's a false sense of higher morality to claim "ethical reasons" for not buying those chicken. You aren't saving or improving the lives of any chickens when you do that. And those chickens don't have it all that bad. I also raise my own chickens and they have a great life for a chicken but it's not idyllic. Chickens have always been low on the food chain and here where I live there are a lot of chicken eaters that are not human. As for safe and organic feed, we all want that, even my neighbors who are chicken farmers. Right now that's still easier said than done. Costco's move may help lead/push us that direction and I commend them for leading on this issue.

ceejayoz 8y ago
> It's a false sense of higher morality to claim "ethical reasons" for not buying those chicken. You aren't saving or improving the lives of any chickens when you do that. Consumer pressure has made a variety of improvements in animal welfare, and is likely to continue to do so.
- hyperbovine 8y ago
  I don't understand why this comment is being downvoted. This is undeniably true. Heck, the industry itself freely admits this. E.g.: https://www.beefmagazine.com/beef-quality/consumers-not-science-are-driving-demand-antibiotic-free-meat https://www.beefmagazine.com/beef-quality/consumers-not-scie... https://www.unileverusa.com/news/press-releases/2017/hellmanns-mayonnaise-and-dressings-now-use-100-percent-cage-free-eggs.html https://www.unileverusa.com/news/press-releases/2017/hellman...
specialist 8y ago
"It's a false sense of higher morality to claim "ethical reasons" for not buying those chicken." Who are you (bunny ear) quoting? Costco's investment is to get better pricing.
jMyles 8y ago
> It's a false sense of higher morality to claim "ethical reasons" for not buying those chicken. You aren't saving or improving the lives of any chickens when you do that. I don't see how this statement can be held with confidence to be true. If I buy chicken whose precise provenance is known, and which are raised in humane conditions with high-quality feed, with a process that is minimally negatively (or, ideally, positively) environmentally impactful, then indeed there is an ethical gain in doing so. If I buy from Tyson, I have no way of knowing any of this. Nor does Tyson even claim that I can know these things.
- Falling3 8y ago
  > If I buy chicken whose precise provenance is known, and which are raised in humane conditions with high-quality feed We're talking morals and we're surely going to have some differences in opinion, but I don't see how raising animals who've been selectively bred to grow an order of magnitude faster and larger than they would naturally, kept indoors for most of their lives, and killed at less than 1% of their potential lifespan could ever be considered "humane". Especially when their consumption is wholly unnecessary.
  - oblib 8y ago
    Ok, I'll talk morals for a bit. First off, not eating chickens doesn't make life any better for those chickens that are eaten, and no chickens live better as a result of not eating them. The best that can be said is less chickens live because they were never hatched from an egg specifically to be eaten. Those Tyson chicken farmers are not torturing chickens, not by a long shot. They get good feed and fresh water and as much of that as they want. I don't know what you imagine chickens do all day when they're not in a barn, but I know what they do. All they do is eat, drink, crap, and screw, and by far most of their time is spent eating. They don't drink much and nothing I know of screws faster than a rooster, so that takes up almost none of their day. And I can assure you that the lifespan of a free range chicken isn't very long. I know this because there are no wild chickens running around where I live, even though 1000s of acres of National Forest surround me and there are many people that raise them at home and farmers with huge barns full of them surrounding the National Forests here. And because I hatched and kept over 30 chickens myself last year and all of them got eaten by wild carnivores. Mostly fox. They're sneaky as can be. I don't have a problem with those who don't eat meat, but if we're going to talk in terms of morals let's not kid ourselves or others by thinking that eating only veggies isn't taking "life". It is, and I just cannot kid myself into thinking that killing a tomato is less or more of an affront to God than killing a chicken. There's really very little difference between raising tomatoes from seed and raising chickens from eggs. Both of those are living things and you have to kill them to eat them. And I won't try to kid myself into believing that I'd not eat a chicken raised by those Tyson farmers if I were starving. I would, and fast too. And so would most everyone who feels a sense of moral superiority to those who eat chickens when they're not starving. I'll probably piss some people off with this, but here it goes anyway... Chickens, and really pretty much every animal we raise to eat, are all fairly well packaged for eating. From cows to pigs to chickens and even fish of all sizes, they all are dressed out pretty much the same and it's a pretty simple and fast process to get them kitchen ready, and they taste good, and they make you feel good (as opposed to modern junk foods). Here's another thing... Most everyone I know who's taken the life of any animal for food did so with a very reverent and thankful attitude. You think about that a lot more than you do when buy a taco at Taco Bell or a salad at a restaurant. I do the same when I take veggies from my garden because I know I'm taking life to sustain my own. I provide care and protection to both my veggies and my chickens and I give thanks when I take them to sustain myself and family and friends. That's all any of us can do and the best we can do. There is no other way to live as a human.
mbesto 8y ago
> As for safe and organic feed, I'm all for "safe" feed, but assigning "organic = safe" is disingenuous. Like it or not (because the studies are not conclusive), but GMO is the only current way we know how to scale food production.
- colordrops 8y ago
  > GMO is the only current way we know how to scale food production. That can't be true. Do you have a source?
  - mbesto 8y ago
    It can't be true because you can't fathom it or because you have evidence of other widely supported organic techniques that I'm unfamiliar with? I mean sure, there is a ton of innovation in the food production supply chain, but nothing quite like what GM has done for agriculture production. Why do you think GMO was established in the first place? If purely organic food is both superior quality and more economically sustainable, then historically speaking why didn't farmers just continue on that path to meet consumer demand?
    - Ensorceled 8y ago
      This is a great comment. The number of acquaintances claiming organic “is also cheaper” drives me crazy.
    - colordrops 8y ago
      > I mean sure, there is a ton of innovation in the food production supply chain, but nothing quite like GM You refuted your own claim. You originally said GMOs are the only way to scale, not the best way to scale. Also, I said nothing about organic food. It's not either organic or GMO, there are other options, and in fact they are they majority.
      - mbesto 8y ago
        > You originally said GMOs are the only way to scale, not the best way to scale. Ok, fair enough, I should have been more specific. Let me rephrase my whole point of view: "The innovation of GMO is largely responsible for the large scale production of the global food supply. I would very surprised if any other innovation in farming has created a higher ROI in terms of crop yield. There are certainly other factors, but to the original parent comment, pretending like organic is synonymous with safe (and equally as it implies non-organic means, or GMO, is not safe) is disingenuous". > It's not either organic or GMO, there are other options Like what specifically? Fertilizers and pesticides?
codeulike 8y ago
> It's a false sense of higher morality to claim "ethical reasons" for not buying those chicken. You aren't saving or improving the lives of any chickens when you do that. Yes you are. Every dollar is like a little vote. The things that everyone puts dollars into will grow, and the things that they dont, wont.

by oblib 8y ago

ceejayoz 8y ago

> It's a false sense of higher morality to claim "ethical reasons" for not buying those chicken. You aren't saving or improving the lives of any chickens when you do that. Consumer pressure has made a variety of improvements in animal welfare, and is likely to continue to do so.

hyperbovine 8y ago
I don't understand why this comment is being downvoted. This is undeniably true. Heck, the industry itself freely admits this. E.g.: https://www.beefmagazine.com/beef-quality/consumers-not-science-are-driving-demand-antibiotic-free-meat https://www.beefmagazine.com/beef-quality/consumers-not-scie... https://www.unileverusa.com/news/press-releases/2017/hellmanns-mayonnaise-and-dressings-now-use-100-percent-cage-free-eggs.html https://www.unileverusa.com/news/press-releases/2017/hellman...

specialist 8y ago

"It's a false sense of higher morality to claim "ethical reasons" for not buying those chicken." Who are you (bunny ear) quoting? Costco's investment is to get better pricing.

jMyles 8y ago

> It's a false sense of higher morality to claim "ethical reasons" for not buying those chicken. You aren't saving or improving the lives of any chickens when you do that. I don't see how this statement can be held with confidence to be true. If I buy chicken whose precise provenance is known, and which are raised in humane conditions with high-quality feed, with a process that is minimally negatively (or, ideally, positively) environmentally impactful, then indeed there is an ethical gain in doing so. If I buy from Tyson, I have no way of knowing any of this. Nor does Tyson even claim that I can know these things.

Falling3 8y ago
> If I buy chicken whose precise provenance is known, and which are raised in humane conditions with high-quality feed We're talking morals and we're surely going to have some differences in opinion, but I don't see how raising animals who've been selectively bred to grow an order of magnitude faster and larger than they would naturally, kept indoors for most of their lives, and killed at less than 1% of their potential lifespan could ever be considered "humane". Especially when their consumption is wholly unnecessary.
- oblib 8y ago
  Ok, I'll talk morals for a bit. First off, not eating chickens doesn't make life any better for those chickens that are eaten, and no chickens live better as a result of not eating them. The best that can be said is less chickens live because they were never hatched from an egg specifically to be eaten. Those Tyson chicken farmers are not torturing chickens, not by a long shot. They get good feed and fresh water and as much of that as they want. I don't know what you imagine chickens do all day when they're not in a barn, but I know what they do. All they do is eat, drink, crap, and screw, and by far most of their time is spent eating. They don't drink much and nothing I know of screws faster than a rooster, so that takes up almost none of their day. And I can assure you that the lifespan of a free range chicken isn't very long. I know this because there are no wild chickens running around where I live, even though 1000s of acres of National Forest surround me and there are many people that raise them at home and farmers with huge barns full of them surrounding the National Forests here. And because I hatched and kept over 30 chickens myself last year and all of them got eaten by wild carnivores. Mostly fox. They're sneaky as can be. I don't have a problem with those who don't eat meat, but if we're going to talk in terms of morals let's not kid ourselves or others by thinking that eating only veggies isn't taking "life". It is, and I just cannot kid myself into thinking that killing a tomato is less or more of an affront to God than killing a chicken. There's really very little difference between raising tomatoes from seed and raising chickens from eggs. Both of those are living things and you have to kill them to eat them. And I won't try to kid myself into believing that I'd not eat a chicken raised by those Tyson farmers if I were starving. I would, and fast too. And so would most everyone who feels a sense of moral superiority to those who eat chickens when they're not starving. I'll probably piss some people off with this, but here it goes anyway... Chickens, and really pretty much every animal we raise to eat, are all fairly well packaged for eating. From cows to pigs to chickens and even fish of all sizes, they all are dressed out pretty much the same and it's a pretty simple and fast process to get them kitchen ready, and they taste good, and they make you feel good (as opposed to modern junk foods). Here's another thing... Most everyone I know who's taken the life of any animal for food did so with a very reverent and thankful attitude. You think about that a lot more than you do when buy a taco at Taco Bell or a salad at a restaurant. I do the same when I take veggies from my garden because I know I'm taking life to sustain my own. I provide care and protection to both my veggies and my chickens and I give thanks when I take them to sustain myself and family and friends. That's all any of us can do and the best we can do. There is no other way to live as a human.

mbesto 8y ago

> As for safe and organic feed, I'm all for "safe" feed, but assigning "organic = safe" is disingenuous. Like it or not (because the studies are not conclusive), but GMO is the only current way we know how to scale food production.

colordrops 8y ago
> GMO is the only current way we know how to scale food production. That can't be true. Do you have a source?
- mbesto 8y ago
  It can't be true because you can't fathom it or because you have evidence of other widely supported organic techniques that I'm unfamiliar with? I mean sure, there is a ton of innovation in the food production supply chain, but nothing quite like what GM has done for agriculture production. Why do you think GMO was established in the first place? If purely organic food is both superior quality and more economically sustainable, then historically speaking why didn't farmers just continue on that path to meet consumer demand?
  - Ensorceled 8y ago
    This is a great comment. The number of acquaintances claiming organic “is also cheaper” drives me crazy.
  - colordrops 8y ago
    > I mean sure, there is a ton of innovation in the food production supply chain, but nothing quite like GM You refuted your own claim. You originally said GMOs are the only way to scale, not the best way to scale. Also, I said nothing about organic food. It's not either organic or GMO, there are other options, and in fact they are they majority.
    - mbesto 8y ago
      > You originally said GMOs are the only way to scale, not the best way to scale. Ok, fair enough, I should have been more specific. Let me rephrase my whole point of view: "The innovation of GMO is largely responsible for the large scale production of the global food supply. I would very surprised if any other innovation in farming has created a higher ROI in terms of crop yield. There are certainly other factors, but to the original parent comment, pretending like organic is synonymous with safe (and equally as it implies non-organic means, or GMO, is not safe) is disingenuous". > It's not either organic or GMO, there are other options Like what specifically? Fertilizers and pesticides?

codeulike 8y ago

> It's a false sense of higher morality to claim "ethical reasons" for not buying those chicken. You aren't saving or improving the lives of any chickens when you do that. Yes you are. Every dollar is like a little vote. The things that everyone puts dollars into will grow, and the things that they dont, wont.