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It is sad to see all the ramifications of these large operations. Between environmental and economical impacts of the area around them, how do we let these get

It is sad to see all the ramifications of these large operations. Between environmental and economical impacts of the area around them, how do we let these get so big? I wonder how many other families are being hurt by the CAFO near your family's farm. I feel for the people who are just trying to run a sustainable business with these huge farms constantly looming in the background.

waffle_ss 8y ago
> how do we let these get so big? My understanding is there was a big change in policy during Nixon's administration, when agribusiness lobbyist Earl "Rusty" Butz became USDA secretary.[1] His mottos were "get big or get out" and "plant fence row to fence row." [1]: https://grist.org/article/the-butz-stops-here/ https://grist.org/article/the-butz-stops-here/
cpursley 8y ago
> how do we let these get so big Farm subsidies (artificially cheap grains for feeding cattle) and the inheritance tax (children are forced to sell the land after parents die due to tax obligations)
- kickout 8y ago
  Disagree BTW. Subsidies are an easy target. Affect very little to the bottom lines I've been privy to (managing input price is biggest factor IMO). Subsidies are an artifact of scale--optics look bad when a big operation is getting 100K USD when they farm 10k acres
  - gyrgtyn 8y ago
    Is corn not an input?
  - kickout 8y ago
    In dairy farms yes. Was trying to generalize.
- woodruffw 8y ago
  The 2018 individual inheritance tax doesn't apply to inheritances below $5.6 million per individual ($11.2 million for couples)[1]. I suspect that relatively few small farmers are impacted by it. [1]: https://www.forbes.com/sites/ashleaebeling/2017/10/19/irs-announces-2018-estate-and-gift-tax-limits-11-2-million-per-couple/ https://www.forbes.com/sites/ashleaebeling/2017/10/19/irs-an...
  - jcranmer 8y ago
    There were 682 estates in 2016 that contained farm assets subject to the estate tax, and on average about 5% of taxable assets on such estates were farm assets, while about 80% of the assets of family farms are family farm assets. That suggests that the number of family farmers caught by the estate tax each year can be counted on your hands. And even then, farmers (unlike everybody else) get 15 years to pay off the estate tax. So, yeah, politicians claiming to hate the estate tax because of its negative impact on small farms are lying their ass off.
- moorhosj 8y ago
  ==children are forced to sell the land after parents die due to tax obligations== Do you have a source for this? If true, wouldn't they just sell a portion of the land to cover the tax, as it only kicks in over $5.5 million?
  - GlenTheMachine 8y ago
    I'm in this situation -- when my mom passes, me and my brothers will inherit the family farm of 320 acres in central VA. As far as I can tell there's no inheritance tax involved. Just in case, decades ago my dad put the land in a family partnership of which me and my siblings each own 19%. So even if inheritance tax was a thing for family farms, there are ways around it. We'll have to pay property tax on it, but that's around $3000 per year.
    - Wowfunhappy 8y ago
      > Just in case, decades ago my dad put the land in a family partnership of which me and my siblings each own 19%. Is it that easy to bypass the estate tax? I'm surprised it collects basically any money at all, if all you have to do is make your children "co-owners" before you die.
  - dbg31415 8y ago
    My family ranch was in North Dakota. Most ranches and farms are set up so that there isn't much value if you don't sell the whole thing. You need land, the homestead (house, barn, shop, corals...), a water source (ideally multiple), roads in and out, fences carved the right way... Yes, you could likely sell a portion of the property, but the parts aren't worth the same as the whole. You'd likely eat the cost of adding in new windmills, water storage tanks, and developing the land in order to get it to sell if you were to carve out a part of your existing pastures and put it on the market. We basically ended up carving off the farm land and selling that, but we had to pay to put a road in... and fences on either side of the road, cattle guards, and it ended up costing $100k in materials and labor (since we had to hire people to do it given nobody lived out there any more)... all just to make $300k. TL;DR: Ranches are set up to be units, and while you can sell part of the land, it sucks to do so.
_jal 8y ago
It is because the externalities of such operations aren't priced in. They are allowed to privatize profit and socialize poison. If you want to fix such problems, fix the incentives that cause them.

waffle_ss 8y ago

> how do we let these get so big? My understanding is there was a big change in policy during Nixon's administration, when agribusiness lobbyist Earl "Rusty" Butz became USDA secretary.[1] His mottos were "get big or get out" and "plant fence row to fence row." [1]: https://grist.org/article/the-butz-stops-here/ https://grist.org/article/the-butz-stops-here/

cpursley 8y ago

> how do we let these get so big Farm subsidies (artificially cheap grains for feeding cattle) and the inheritance tax (children are forced to sell the land after parents die due to tax obligations)

kickout 8y ago
Disagree BTW. Subsidies are an easy target. Affect very little to the bottom lines I've been privy to (managing input price is biggest factor IMO). Subsidies are an artifact of scale--optics look bad when a big operation is getting 100K USD when they farm 10k acres
- gyrgtyn 8y ago
  Is corn not an input?
- kickout 8y ago
  In dairy farms yes. Was trying to generalize.
woodruffw 8y ago
The 2018 individual inheritance tax doesn't apply to inheritances below $5.6 million per individual ($11.2 million for couples)[1]. I suspect that relatively few small farmers are impacted by it. [1]: https://www.forbes.com/sites/ashleaebeling/2017/10/19/irs-announces-2018-estate-and-gift-tax-limits-11-2-million-per-couple/ https://www.forbes.com/sites/ashleaebeling/2017/10/19/irs-an...
- jcranmer 8y ago
  There were 682 estates in 2016 that contained farm assets subject to the estate tax, and on average about 5% of taxable assets on such estates were farm assets, while about 80% of the assets of family farms are family farm assets. That suggests that the number of family farmers caught by the estate tax each year can be counted on your hands. And even then, farmers (unlike everybody else) get 15 years to pay off the estate tax. So, yeah, politicians claiming to hate the estate tax because of its negative impact on small farms are lying their ass off.
moorhosj 8y ago
==children are forced to sell the land after parents die due to tax obligations== Do you have a source for this? If true, wouldn't they just sell a portion of the land to cover the tax, as it only kicks in over $5.5 million?
- GlenTheMachine 8y ago
  I'm in this situation -- when my mom passes, me and my brothers will inherit the family farm of 320 acres in central VA. As far as I can tell there's no inheritance tax involved. Just in case, decades ago my dad put the land in a family partnership of which me and my siblings each own 19%. So even if inheritance tax was a thing for family farms, there are ways around it. We'll have to pay property tax on it, but that's around $3000 per year.
  - Wowfunhappy 8y ago
    > Just in case, decades ago my dad put the land in a family partnership of which me and my siblings each own 19%. Is it that easy to bypass the estate tax? I'm surprised it collects basically any money at all, if all you have to do is make your children "co-owners" before you die.
- dbg31415 8y ago
  My family ranch was in North Dakota. Most ranches and farms are set up so that there isn't much value if you don't sell the whole thing. You need land, the homestead (house, barn, shop, corals...), a water source (ideally multiple), roads in and out, fences carved the right way... Yes, you could likely sell a portion of the property, but the parts aren't worth the same as the whole. You'd likely eat the cost of adding in new windmills, water storage tanks, and developing the land in order to get it to sell if you were to carve out a part of your existing pastures and put it on the market. We basically ended up carving off the farm land and selling that, but we had to pay to put a road in... and fences on either side of the road, cattle guards, and it ended up costing $100k in materials and labor (since we had to hire people to do it given nobody lived out there any more)... all just to make $300k. TL;DR: Ranches are set up to be units, and while you can sell part of the land, it sucks to do so.

_jal 8y ago

It is because the externalities of such operations aren't priced in. They are allowed to privatize profit and socialize poison. If you want to fix such problems, fix the incentives that cause them.