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My understanding (no sources) is that better treated chickens have: - Fewer hormones for growth - Fewer antibiotics (diseases spread rapidly in confined space

My understanding (no sources) is that better treated chickens have: - Fewer hormones for growth - Fewer antibiotics (diseases spread rapidly in confined spaces) - Higher quality meat (Chicken gets more exercise and movement, as well as increased quality of feed) - Higher nutritional value (increased exercise and sunlight, potentially) In terms of calories though, it's probably a wash, and more inefficient from calories/money. edit: formatting

waffle_ss 8y ago
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- riffraff 8y ago
  The issue with antibiotics in farming is that they may be used to contrast unhealthy conditions. If your chicken don't get sick because they have free roaming space and don't peck each other and so on you don't need antibiotics.
  - SketchySeaBeast 8y ago
    > they have free roaming space and don't peck each other and so on Chickens are assholes no matter the square footage.
    - benj111 8y ago
      I think that's a bit unfair, just because we haven't bred all of their instinctual behaviour out of them.
  - clairity 8y ago
    chicken contact lenses (to reduce aggression) was one of my favorite business case studies: https://gohighbrow.com/optical-distortion-aka-the-chicken-contact-lenses-case/ https://gohighbrow.com/optical-distortion-aka-the-chicken-co... i won't spoil the punchline (it's not obvious from first blush).
    - tomatotomato37 8y ago
      Someone made a website for it too: https://www.opticaldistortion.com/ https://www.opticaldistortion.com/
    - riffraff 8y ago
      awesome but how do I learn more about this? Both links from that page are dead -_-
      - clairity 8y ago
        if you want the punchline, this quora answer has it (SPOILER ALERT): https://www.quora.com/What-is-the-most-useful-Harvard-Business-School-case-for-startups-The-case-doesnt-necessarily-need-to-be-about-startups-It-could-bring-out-a-core-pattern-or-abstraction-that-is-useful-for-entrepreneurs https://www.quora.com/What-is-the-most-useful-Harvard-Busine... otherwise you can search for “ODI optical distortion business case” to find sites that have the setup and various attempts at analyzing/answering the case.
- BenElgar 8y ago
  The antibiotics are needed because they're so poorly treated. The chickens wouldn't get sick if they weren't packed into battery farms. The antibiotics aren't always necessary either, it's just more profitable to have the animal spend less energy fighting illness that it would otherwise have survived.
  - mc32 8y ago
    Aside from the growth hormones which can be avoided, chickens suffer ftom contagious transmissible diseases even in exurban settings (few chickens, lots of space), so they must ne administered antibiotics to fend of diseases and collapse of the brood.
  - thevardanian 8y ago
    In the dairy industry, for example, organic milk would mean you have to either let the cow die if they get sick, or give it antibiotics, cure it, and then send it to the slaughterhouse as you can't milk that cow anymore, worse still you give the cow antibiotics and continue to milk it thereby making the milk worse than "normal milk", because you don't want to lose money. That's why organic isn't always the most ideal.
    - snowwrestler 8y ago
      Where did you get the idea that the regulation of "organic" labeling prevents treating sick animals? To my knowledge it is not true.
      - rmrm 8y ago
        It does not prevent treatment, but if treated with antibiotics, that animals milk will never there after be organic. Thems the rules.
        itwasntandy 8y ago
        That is insane that that is the case here in the US. ( and I just checked as I could not believe it). In Europe it’s different - https://ec.europa.eu/agriculture/organic/eu-policy/eu-rules-on-production/livestock_en https://ec.europa.eu/agriculture/organic/eu-policy/eu-rules-... “When the animals are ill, chemically synthesised allopathic veterinary medicinal products including antibiotics may be used where necessary and under strict conditions. This is only allowed when the use of phytotherapeutic, homeopathic and other products is inappropriate.”
- lucisferre 8y ago
  Antibiotics are used to make animals grow faster and bigger not to make them well. https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/m/pubmed/16142667/ https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/m/pubmed/16142667/
- deleted 8y ago
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- deleted 8y ago
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- wil421 8y ago
  Tyson doesn’t use any antibiotics, Purdue says they used less than 5%, and most of the rest don’t use them.
colechristensen 8y ago
>- Fewer hormones for growth The FDA bans hormones in all poultry production, companies advertising it are trying to fool you into thinking the opposite is possible, it isn't. >- Fewer antibiotics Zero antibiotics is very common among producers
- wolco 8y ago
  The move to fungal sources is happening but zero antibiotics isn't common https://www.theatlantic.com/science/archive/2018/09/chicken-after-antibiotics/570028/ https://www.theatlantic.com/science/archive/2018/09/chicken-...
  - WillPostForFood 8y ago
    The article doesn't really say one way or another whether it is uncommon. It also lazily veers back and forth between references to the poultry industry, and animal farms generally so I don't even think you make an inference.
outworlder 8y ago
> - Fewer hormones for growth This is a urban legend. Not sure if it was true at any point, but it is not the case. Chickens were selectively bred to grow fast enough as it is, to the point that some breeds have a percentage of offspring lost. Try to make them grow any faster and more will die. > - Higher quality meat (Chicken gets more exercise and movement, as well as increased quality of feed) At least for cows (and most game), you don't want them to exercise too much or the meat won't be as tender. Is it different for chickens?
- benj111 8y ago
  "At least for cows (and most game), you don't want them to exercise too much or the meat won't be as tender. Is it different for chickens?" There tends to be a flavour/tenderness tradeoff. So you'll tend to get more flavour from more used muscles. (eg chicken breast v thigh) That said, the average battery hen could do a hell of a lot more exercise and still not be tough.
- shittyadmin 8y ago
  Yeah, shit like this is why I absolutely refuse to pay more. Ultimately, you're killing them, I couldn't care less what else you do to them or how nice you treat them before you kill them. The few times I've had to buy the more expensive stuff (I was trying to make a specific dish and only the higher priced organic one was available), I've noticed no significant difference in quality or flavor. Fortunately I don't know many people who fall for it, but apparently they exist.
  - Pfhreak 8y ago
    It's not clear whether your intent is to come off as a sociopath, but there's a stunning lack of empathy in your comment.
    - deleted 8y ago
      [deleted]
    - deleted 8y ago
      [deleted]
Brains1ug 8y ago
>Fewer hormones for growth >Chicken gets more exercise and movement Having raised chickens for meat on a small scale (30-40 at a time), I can tell you that chickens used for meat ("Broiler" chickens) are selectively bred to grow as big as possible as quickly as possible. There is no need for growth hormones, they grow so quickly that their bone structure cannot keep up, to the point that they are barely able to walk 8-12 weeks from hatching. If they are not slaughtered on time, they die from heart failure.
- PopeDotNinja 8y ago
  > If they are not slaughtered on time, they die from heart failure. Wow, you weren't kidding. [1] I am not surprised that chickens have been bred to grow fast, but I've never heard of an animal that implodes because it grows so fast. [1]
  - jimmy1 8y ago
    Andre the Giant died of heart failure because he grew too fast
    - sayno3 8y ago
      Is he a chicken?
  - ethbro 8y ago
    Modern Cornish crosses are a miracle of selective breeding (aka genetic engineering). At this point, they're not far away from muscle growing machines with just enough brain attached to partially handle themselves.
    - thatoneuser 8y ago
      Heh if you haven't heard you should check out Mike the headless chicken. That shows you how little brain chickens need.
      - 8y ago
nwallin 8y ago
Chickens are given neither hormones nor antibiotics. It's been illegal to give chickens growth hormones for a long time. Most major chicken brands (Tyson and Purdue, who are #1 and 2 in terms of production) do not give chickens antibiotics, unless the flock gets sick. In that case, the flock is treated and then sold as a different product- usually either as pet food or an off brand. I don't know why we use hormones and antibiotics for pork and beef but not chicken.

waffle_ss 8y ago

riffraff 8y ago
The issue with antibiotics in farming is that they may be used to contrast unhealthy conditions. If your chicken don't get sick because they have free roaming space and don't peck each other and so on you don't need antibiotics.
- SketchySeaBeast 8y ago
  > they have free roaming space and don't peck each other and so on Chickens are assholes no matter the square footage.
  - benj111 8y ago
    I think that's a bit unfair, just because we haven't bred all of their instinctual behaviour out of them.
- clairity 8y ago
  chicken contact lenses (to reduce aggression) was one of my favorite business case studies: https://gohighbrow.com/optical-distortion-aka-the-chicken-contact-lenses-case/ https://gohighbrow.com/optical-distortion-aka-the-chicken-co... i won't spoil the punchline (it's not obvious from first blush).
  - tomatotomato37 8y ago
    Someone made a website for it too: https://www.opticaldistortion.com/ https://www.opticaldistortion.com/
  - riffraff 8y ago
    awesome but how do I learn more about this? Both links from that page are dead -_-
    - clairity 8y ago
      if you want the punchline, this quora answer has it (SPOILER ALERT): https://www.quora.com/What-is-the-most-useful-Harvard-Business-School-case-for-startups-The-case-doesnt-necessarily-need-to-be-about-startups-It-could-bring-out-a-core-pattern-or-abstraction-that-is-useful-for-entrepreneurs https://www.quora.com/What-is-the-most-useful-Harvard-Busine... otherwise you can search for “ODI optical distortion business case” to find sites that have the setup and various attempts at analyzing/answering the case.
BenElgar 8y ago
The antibiotics are needed because they're so poorly treated. The chickens wouldn't get sick if they weren't packed into battery farms. The antibiotics aren't always necessary either, it's just more profitable to have the animal spend less energy fighting illness that it would otherwise have survived.
- mc32 8y ago
  Aside from the growth hormones which can be avoided, chickens suffer ftom contagious transmissible diseases even in exurban settings (few chickens, lots of space), so they must ne administered antibiotics to fend of diseases and collapse of the brood.
- thevardanian 8y ago
  In the dairy industry, for example, organic milk would mean you have to either let the cow die if they get sick, or give it antibiotics, cure it, and then send it to the slaughterhouse as you can't milk that cow anymore, worse still you give the cow antibiotics and continue to milk it thereby making the milk worse than "normal milk", because you don't want to lose money. That's why organic isn't always the most ideal.
  - snowwrestler 8y ago
    Where did you get the idea that the regulation of "organic" labeling prevents treating sick animals? To my knowledge it is not true.
    - rmrm 8y ago
      It does not prevent treatment, but if treated with antibiotics, that animals milk will never there after be organic. Thems the rules.
      - itwasntandy 8y ago
        That is insane that that is the case here in the US. ( and I just checked as I could not believe it). In Europe it’s different - https://ec.europa.eu/agriculture/organic/eu-policy/eu-rules-on-production/livestock_en https://ec.europa.eu/agriculture/organic/eu-policy/eu-rules-... “When the animals are ill, chemically synthesised allopathic veterinary medicinal products including antibiotics may be used where necessary and under strict conditions. This is only allowed when the use of phytotherapeutic, homeopathic and other products is inappropriate.”
lucisferre 8y ago
Antibiotics are used to make animals grow faster and bigger not to make them well. https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/m/pubmed/16142667/ https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/m/pubmed/16142667/
deleted 8y ago
[deleted]
deleted 8y ago
[deleted]
wil421 8y ago
Tyson doesn’t use any antibiotics, Purdue says they used less than 5%, and most of the rest don’t use them.

colechristensen 8y ago

>- Fewer hormones for growth The FDA bans hormones in all poultry production, companies advertising it are trying to fool you into thinking the opposite is possible, it isn't. >- Fewer antibiotics Zero antibiotics is very common among producers

wolco 8y ago
The move to fungal sources is happening but zero antibiotics isn't common https://www.theatlantic.com/science/archive/2018/09/chicken-after-antibiotics/570028/ https://www.theatlantic.com/science/archive/2018/09/chicken-...
- WillPostForFood 8y ago
  The article doesn't really say one way or another whether it is uncommon. It also lazily veers back and forth between references to the poultry industry, and animal farms generally so I don't even think you make an inference.

outworlder 8y ago

> - Fewer hormones for growth This is a urban legend. Not sure if it was true at any point, but it is not the case. Chickens were selectively bred to grow fast enough as it is, to the point that some breeds have a percentage of offspring lost. Try to make them grow any faster and more will die. > - Higher quality meat (Chicken gets more exercise and movement, as well as increased quality of feed) At least for cows (and most game), you don't want them to exercise too much or the meat won't be as tender. Is it different for chickens?

benj111 8y ago
"At least for cows (and most game), you don't want them to exercise too much or the meat won't be as tender. Is it different for chickens?" There tends to be a flavour/tenderness tradeoff. So you'll tend to get more flavour from more used muscles. (eg chicken breast v thigh) That said, the average battery hen could do a hell of a lot more exercise and still not be tough.
shittyadmin 8y ago
Yeah, shit like this is why I absolutely refuse to pay more. Ultimately, you're killing them, I couldn't care less what else you do to them or how nice you treat them before you kill them. The few times I've had to buy the more expensive stuff (I was trying to make a specific dish and only the higher priced organic one was available), I've noticed no significant difference in quality or flavor. Fortunately I don't know many people who fall for it, but apparently they exist.
- Pfhreak 8y ago
  It's not clear whether your intent is to come off as a sociopath, but there's a stunning lack of empathy in your comment.
  - deleted 8y ago
    [deleted]
  - deleted 8y ago
    [deleted]

Brains1ug 8y ago

>Fewer hormones for growth >Chicken gets more exercise and movement Having raised chickens for meat on a small scale (30-40 at a time), I can tell you that chickens used for meat ("Broiler" chickens) are selectively bred to grow as big as possible as quickly as possible. There is no need for growth hormones, they grow so quickly that their bone structure cannot keep up, to the point that they are barely able to walk 8-12 weeks from hatching. If they are not slaughtered on time, they die from heart failure.

PopeDotNinja 8y ago
> If they are not slaughtered on time, they die from heart failure. Wow, you weren't kidding. [1] I am not surprised that chickens have been bred to grow fast, but I've never heard of an animal that implodes because it grows so fast. [1]
- jimmy1 8y ago
  Andre the Giant died of heart failure because he grew too fast
  - sayno3 8y ago
    Is he a chicken?
- ethbro 8y ago
  Modern Cornish crosses are a miracle of selective breeding (aka genetic engineering). At this point, they're not far away from muscle growing machines with just enough brain attached to partially handle themselves.
  - thatoneuser 8y ago
    Heh if you haven't heard you should check out Mike the headless chicken. That shows you how little brain chickens need.
    - 8y ago

nwallin 8y ago

Chickens are given neither hormones nor antibiotics. It's been illegal to give chickens growth hormones for a long time. Most major chicken brands (Tyson and Purdue, who are #1 and 2 in terms of production) do not give chickens antibiotics, unless the flock gets sick. In that case, the flock is treated and then sold as a different product- usually either as pet food or an off brand. I don't know why we use hormones and antibiotics for pork and beef but not chicken.