3 ms·

It's been kind of shocking to discover that despite decades of strong support for women, lesbians included, I've suddenly been deemed the enemy, by mere dint of

It's been kind of shocking to discover that despite decades of strong support for women, lesbians included, I've suddenly been deemed the enemy, by mere dint of being a man. For me it's bewildering and demoralizing. But watching young men, I think the future cost will be great.

krapp 8y ago
I don't understand why you appear to believe that objecting to the toxic and harmful behavior sometimes encouraged and reinforced by masculine culture is an attack on all men, or even on masculinity as a whole, but fair enough. Frankly, I found the ad inspiring. I suppose given the nature of the men's rights movement and the modern anti-pc / anti-feminist backlash in modern culture, it's just not possible to have an objective cultural conversation about the nature of male identity expressions of masculinity in modern society, pro and con, without it getting wrapped up in the persecution complex that seems to form the core of modern male identity. Maybe in a generation or two, though. Have fun on that cross of yours.
- towaway1138 8y ago
  I believe in addressing bad behavior on an individual basis, regardless of the offender's demographics. I'll wager that I'm far less tolerant of such behavior than you are. If you want to change the world, name calling and gaslighting such as this is not the way to do it.
  - krapp 8y ago
    >I believe in addressing bad behavior on an individual basis, regardless of the offender's demographics I mean... >>It's been kind of shocking to discover that despite decades of strong support for women, lesbians included, I've suddenly been deemed the enemy, by mere dint of being a man. ...clearly you have no issue with labeling bad behavior by women and/or feminists as a group, unless your earlier comment was in reference to some unnamed individual woman, which would be a really weird non-sequitur, so I don't see why you can't do the same for men. Culture exists. Group dynamics exist. Men, like women, are individuals as well as members of a complex and interconnected set of social, political and cultural identities. One can recognize bad behavior in an individual while also accepting that behavior can be systemic, and that men have been facing something of a crisis of identity and purpose in the face of feminism. I don't think it's incorrect to suggest that this crisis of identity has manifested some harmful traits, such as an unnecessary defensiveness in the face of criticism. After all, there was nothing in the posted commercial that was an attack on all men or on you personally, yet your response to it was to express how women have apparently betrayed your trust and deemed you an enemy for your gender. That seems an awful lot like a persecution complex to me. >I'll wager that I'm far less tolerant of such behavior than you are. I don't know why you would, but ok.
    - towaway1138 8y ago
      > That seems an awful lot like a persecution complex to me. I seem to be in good company. > I don't know why you would When I describe my ideas on what should happen to men (and women) who commit physical violence, virtually everyone thinks my approach is too harsh.
- belorn 8y ago
  It is no more an attack on all men then anti-immigration messages are an attack on all foreigners, or "anti-terrorism" policies are an attack on all Muslims. An objective cultural conversation would mean first that there is a shared respect. If the message is that toxic Muslims need to be stopped, that Islam culture sometimes encouraged and reinforce harmful behavior, some Muslims will feel that this is a general attack on them. Especially if we tell them that it is every Muslims responsibility to stop the bad behavior of other Muslims, and that Muslims parents need to talk with their Muslims children to treat people of other religions with dignity. Is it that hard to see why a Muslim, who has nothing to do with terrorism, might take offense and see it as hate towards them as a demographic if that message was presented on an advertisement for razors? I would not, nor if you changed the targeted demographic to be jews, African Americans, LGBT, women, men, or any other. This is not how you create a inclusive and productive environment for a cultural conversation.

krapp 8y ago

I don't understand why you appear to believe that objecting to the toxic and harmful behavior sometimes encouraged and reinforced by masculine culture is an attack on all men, or even on masculinity as a whole, but fair enough. Frankly, I found the ad inspiring. I suppose given the nature of the men's rights movement and the modern anti-pc / anti-feminist backlash in modern culture, it's just not possible to have an objective cultural conversation about the nature of male identity expressions of masculinity in modern society, pro and con, without it getting wrapped up in the persecution complex that seems to form the core of modern male identity. Maybe in a generation or two, though. Have fun on that cross of yours.

towaway1138 8y ago
I believe in addressing bad behavior on an individual basis, regardless of the offender's demographics. I'll wager that I'm far less tolerant of such behavior than you are. If you want to change the world, name calling and gaslighting such as this is not the way to do it.
- krapp 8y ago
  >I believe in addressing bad behavior on an individual basis, regardless of the offender's demographics I mean... >>It's been kind of shocking to discover that despite decades of strong support for women, lesbians included, I've suddenly been deemed the enemy, by mere dint of being a man. ...clearly you have no issue with labeling bad behavior by women and/or feminists as a group, unless your earlier comment was in reference to some unnamed individual woman, which would be a really weird non-sequitur, so I don't see why you can't do the same for men. Culture exists. Group dynamics exist. Men, like women, are individuals as well as members of a complex and interconnected set of social, political and cultural identities. One can recognize bad behavior in an individual while also accepting that behavior can be systemic, and that men have been facing something of a crisis of identity and purpose in the face of feminism. I don't think it's incorrect to suggest that this crisis of identity has manifested some harmful traits, such as an unnecessary defensiveness in the face of criticism. After all, there was nothing in the posted commercial that was an attack on all men or on you personally, yet your response to it was to express how women have apparently betrayed your trust and deemed you an enemy for your gender. That seems an awful lot like a persecution complex to me. >I'll wager that I'm far less tolerant of such behavior than you are. I don't know why you would, but ok.
  - towaway1138 8y ago
    > That seems an awful lot like a persecution complex to me. I seem to be in good company. > I don't know why you would When I describe my ideas on what should happen to men (and women) who commit physical violence, virtually everyone thinks my approach is too harsh.
belorn 8y ago
It is no more an attack on all men then anti-immigration messages are an attack on all foreigners, or "anti-terrorism" policies are an attack on all Muslims. An objective cultural conversation would mean first that there is a shared respect. If the message is that toxic Muslims need to be stopped, that Islam culture sometimes encouraged and reinforce harmful behavior, some Muslims will feel that this is a general attack on them. Especially if we tell them that it is every Muslims responsibility to stop the bad behavior of other Muslims, and that Muslims parents need to talk with their Muslims children to treat people of other religions with dignity. Is it that hard to see why a Muslim, who has nothing to do with terrorism, might take offense and see it as hate towards them as a demographic if that message was presented on an advertisement for razors? I would not, nor if you changed the targeted demographic to be jews, African Americans, LGBT, women, men, or any other. This is not how you create a inclusive and productive environment for a cultural conversation.