4 ms·

Is there no way to test? Or there is, just not everything?

by th0ma5 8y ago

nickpinkston 8y ago
The best shops use simulation tools, but you need the 3D models / configurations of everything to make them work, and then the machinist still needs to load everything correctly. It's very easy to make a mistake. Check out a simulator here: https://www.ncsimul.com/ https://www.ncsimul.com/
- rmu09 8y ago
  There are machines that are "self-aware" in the sense that they run a simulation parallel to the NC control, slightly advanded in time, to catch catastrophic crashes and ESTOP the machine. Cutting into the machine bed can be _very_ expensive.
  - nickpinkston 8y ago
    Which machines are you referring to? How aware? Do they have any vision? Can they "see" or otherwise "know" about the cutters / workholding?
    - rmu09 8y ago
      I know of WFL millturns with crashguard. AFAIK the crash guard is a separate component that relies on 3d models of the machine and the tools, it doesn't see anything. If you workholding is weak and a piece comes loose the crash guard probably won't make a difference.
- bluedino 8y ago
  We use a very simple method: overlay the position of the head/arm of the machine on top of the DXF file of the table. If the supports/bars are in the overlay, the operator DOES NOT run that part and takes it back to design.
- onmai-xyz 8y ago
  >machinist still needs to load everything correctly. It's very easy to make a mistake. Tool configuration is kinda-sorta solved with ISO 13399, this is being supported in more and more CAM systems and tool vendors, but as you say it is very easy to make a mistake. Assuming the mistakes are happening when the tool data is reduced from the comprehensive format that ISO 13399 supports to the barebones and simple TxDxHx format that is loaded on CNC machine. Would be nice if machine tools supported a comprehensive format directly.
  - nickpinkston 8y ago
    Not to mention workholding, etc. that might be off.
    - onmai-xyz 8y ago
      Tooling data in a G-Code data structure bootstrapped with G65 and M98 would support fixture models. Certainly a chicken and egg problem though, my ideal future would have CAD files generated from single source of truth CNC files:)
joshu 8y ago
https://camotics.org/ https://camotics.org/
toss1 8y ago
Most decent CAM software has at least some simulation routines, which is helpful, but definitely not definitive. There can often be errors such as defaults that are bad in some situation that create a lead-in/out that tries to clear the tool, but actually digs the full length of it into the solid material, and this might not be noticed in the simulation. I've also frequently mocked up styrofoam stock material and run the entire toolpath through that, which can be very helpful, but again, not definitive. Ultimately, you need to just be really careful about the toolpath creation, and watch the first run like a hawk, which can take hours. Pausing and starting each new segment at a fraction of normal speed can help also. The cool thing is that once you've run the toolpath a few times and can trust it, you can almost start it and ignore it while the part gets made (note that the operative word is almost). Even with the difficulties, when you have a good machine and some skills (and patience), it is quite rewarding what you can make!
rfrey 8y ago
You can put all your workholding devices (vice, clamps, etc.) and toolholder into your CAM software and it will find some crashes during simulations. Most CAM will do good simulations. I usually run a new program without an actual cutter in the spindle. Then I run it with the cutter but 2-3" above the actual material to be cut. Many people will do trial runs on machinable wax.
PascLeRasc 8y ago
Some CNC machines, like the Bantam Tools "Othermill", have software that does a "test" and will tell you if you'll crash into the board, and can recommend drill bit sizes. I'd highly recommend this machine btw, excellent support and I've been very happy with the results for both wood and PCBs.
JeremyHerrman 8y ago
There's a lot that can go wrong, and it's too much work & tech integration for most shops to make the investment. Even if you have the 3D models for everything involved: tooling, tool holders, stock material, fixtures, CNC machine, along with the instructions for the movement of all of it, there are still many opportunities for both configuration errors and runtime crashes. For instance, CAM tools usually simulation axis movements only, before they've been converted to gcode/NC. If there's a bug in your post-processor that generates gcode or if it doesn't perfectly match your machine configuration, you're going to crash. Even if you use a simulation tool like Vericut or NCSIMUL, which both simulate using the actual gcode, the physical machine settings may be out of sync, or there could be a wrong piece of stock material loaded or some foreign object (a wrench) that causes a crash. Probing routines and careful selection of Work Coordinate Systems can help verify/eliminate some of these unknowns at runtime, but it's still no guarantee that the part will come out right. Hardware is hard!

Is there no way to test? Or there is, just not everything?

by th0ma5 8y ago

Is there no way to test? Or there is, just not everything?

The best shops use simulation tools, but you need the 3D models / configurations of everything to make them work, and then the machinist still needs to load everything correctly. It's very easy to make a mistake. Check out a simulator here: https://www.ncsimul.com/ https://www.ncsimul.com/

rmu09 8y ago
There are machines that are "self-aware" in the sense that they run a simulation parallel to the NC control, slightly advanded in time, to catch catastrophic crashes and ESTOP the machine. Cutting into the machine bed can be _very_ expensive.
- nickpinkston 8y ago
  Which machines are you referring to? How aware? Do they have any vision? Can they "see" or otherwise "know" about the cutters / workholding?
  - rmu09 8y ago
    I know of WFL millturns with crashguard. AFAIK the crash guard is a separate component that relies on 3d models of the machine and the tools, it doesn't see anything. If you workholding is weak and a piece comes loose the crash guard probably won't make a difference.
bluedino 8y ago
We use a very simple method: overlay the position of the head/arm of the machine on top of the DXF file of the table. If the supports/bars are in the overlay, the operator DOES NOT run that part and takes it back to design.
onmai-xyz 8y ago
>machinist still needs to load everything correctly. It's very easy to make a mistake. Tool configuration is kinda-sorta solved with ISO 13399, this is being supported in more and more CAM systems and tool vendors, but as you say it is very easy to make a mistake. Assuming the mistakes are happening when the tool data is reduced from the comprehensive format that ISO 13399 supports to the barebones and simple TxDxHx format that is loaded on CNC machine. Would be nice if machine tools supported a comprehensive format directly.
- nickpinkston 8y ago
  Not to mention workholding, etc. that might be off.
  - onmai-xyz 8y ago
    Tooling data in a G-Code data structure bootstrapped with G65 and M98 would support fixture models. Certainly a chicken and egg problem though, my ideal future would have CAD files generated from single source of truth CNC files:)

joshu 8y ago

https://camotics.org/ https://camotics.org/

toss1 8y ago

Most decent CAM software has at least some simulation routines, which is helpful, but definitely not definitive. There can often be errors such as defaults that are bad in some situation that create a lead-in/out that tries to clear the tool, but actually digs the full length of it into the solid material, and this might not be noticed in the simulation. I've also frequently mocked up styrofoam stock material and run the entire toolpath through that, which can be very helpful, but again, not definitive. Ultimately, you need to just be really careful about the toolpath creation, and watch the first run like a hawk, which can take hours. Pausing and starting each new segment at a fraction of normal speed can help also. The cool thing is that once you've run the toolpath a few times and can trust it, you can almost start it and ignore it while the part gets made (note that the operative word is almost). Even with the difficulties, when you have a good machine and some skills (and patience), it is quite rewarding what you can make!

rfrey 8y ago

You can put all your workholding devices (vice, clamps, etc.) and toolholder into your CAM software and it will find some crashes during simulations. Most CAM will do good simulations. I usually run a new program without an actual cutter in the spindle. Then I run it with the cutter but 2-3" above the actual material to be cut. Many people will do trial runs on machinable wax.

PascLeRasc 8y ago

Some CNC machines, like the Bantam Tools "Othermill", have software that does a "test" and will tell you if you'll crash into the board, and can recommend drill bit sizes. I'd highly recommend this machine btw, excellent support and I've been very happy with the results for both wood and PCBs.

JeremyHerrman 8y ago

There's a lot that can go wrong, and it's too much work & tech integration for most shops to make the investment. Even if you have the 3D models for everything involved: tooling, tool holders, stock material, fixtures, CNC machine, along with the instructions for the movement of all of it, there are still many opportunities for both configuration errors and runtime crashes. For instance, CAM tools usually simulation axis movements only, before they've been converted to gcode/NC. If there's a bug in your post-processor that generates gcode or if it doesn't perfectly match your machine configuration, you're going to crash. Even if you use a simulation tool like Vericut or NCSIMUL, which both simulate using the actual gcode, the physical machine settings may be out of sync, or there could be a wrong piece of stock material loaded or some foreign object (a wrench) that causes a crash. Probing routines and careful selection of Work Coordinate Systems can help verify/eliminate some of these unknowns at runtime, but it's still no guarantee that the part will come out right. Hardware is hard!